Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

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Should businesses have the liberty to deny anyone service?

Yes, it is their right as a business.
7
35%
No, that leads to discrimination.
13
65%
 
Total votes : 20

Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 2nd August, 2016, 1:47 pm

The only argument against my stance is that businesses do not have the right. I do not understand why they don't. Again, if a business receives no money from the government, pays their taxes, and operates lawfully, why shouldn't they? It makes zero sense why they shouldn't.

Anyways, Merkel, in that scenario, I still believe a business has the right to refuse service to the gay guy. It isn't the businesses' responsibility and I don't believe it leads to a monopoly.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Jacketh » 2nd August, 2016, 2:28 pm

Pity wrote:The only argument against my stance is that businesses do not have the right. I do not understand why they don't. Again, if a business receives no money from the government, pays their taxes, and operates lawfully, why shouldn't they? It makes zero sense why they shouldn't..


You know, its funny. America is one of the most patriotic countries on earth. So many of you guys are patriotic. But so many of you are attached to individualism, and I presume it stems from the American dream. Healthcare? Pay for it yourself. Universities? Who cares if they're so damn expensive. The environment? Who cares about that - we shouldn't be regulating sectors! And the reason I bring that up is because, once again, that mentality is shown here. You really can't grasp the idea of what a society is. Merkel gave you the perfect example of why businesses should not be able to discriminate - yet, you bring it back to the business owner. Its his decision. He pays his taxes. And it really is such an American way of looking at the world. Americans so often talk fondly of their duty to society and country, yet, at the same time, will defend things like this. If we're going to take such an individualistic approach - what about the guy who has been discriminated against? Presumably he's been paying his taxes - and it is those taxes that go into education, the reason his hairdresser that does not want to serve him might have got a good education and opportunities.

It really is funny how the laissez-faire attitude manifests itself right over society, like the individual, or business owner, in this case, has the right to do whatever the hell they want because it is their right. Little has been achieved in the US or in the world with that attitude. Segregation? There would have been people like yourself saying that it is their right to impose it if they wish. To own a slave? Again, their right. And what about big business, then? Because the same principle and supposed-right should be applied everywhere to ensure a fair market. So if the next CEO of Apple doesn't like Muslims/Jews/black people they can be banned from entering Apple stores? Is that the society you really want? I would expect an answer, but I genuinely believe you have zero grasp on what the word actually means.

Oh, another flaw: Using the logic of "it is their business and they can do whatever the hell they like" also means you have to support zero regulation on wages and working conditions, and that a business owner can pay whatever the hell they want and provide whatever working conditions or hours they like. Because, you know, you don't have to work there - do you?

I've zero idea how you ever supported Bernie Sanders. Your view of the world and politics could not get more different - seriously. :runaway:
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 2nd August, 2016, 4:31 pm

Jack, you are using a major flaw in your logic. You believe that just because I think businesses have the right to discriminate that it means the government shouldn't help the environment, shouldn't give educational opportunities, and should allow businesses to abuse workers. That is a very dumb black-or-white outlook of my views. Stop being a straw man.

What about the guy being discriminated against? Who cares if he pays taxes? Him paying taxes to the government means he is able to receive support from the government; it does not entitle him to receive service from any business he wants.

Is anyone forcing you to go "X Bakery" for a wedding cake? No. Go to "Y Bakery" instead.

And yes, it is Apple's right to ban Muslims from their stores if they want to. Why isn't it? They own their business and pay their taxes. If a Muslim wants to buy an Apple product, too bad. They can go to Samsung or Motorola.

You also fail to mention the lack of use of the law. Apple would never discriminate because 1) it's a business; their goal is to make money. 2) In today's overly-PC society, there's no way they won't face crippling backlash. Malls, shopping centers, commercial property owners, etc. will likely include in rental agreements that a business can't discriminate. Giving businesses this right is mostly symbolic and if a business wants to act on this by banning black people, they can face the financial backlash and scrutiny.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Jacketh » 2nd August, 2016, 4:45 pm

Pity wrote:Jack, you are using a major flaw in your logic. You believe that just because I think businesses have the right to discriminate that it means the government shouldn't help the environment, shouldn't give educational opportunities, and should allow businesses to abuse workers. That is a very dumb black-or-white outlook of my views. Stop being a straw man.


No, I don't believe you think that. I believe that what you're suggesting, and your logic, that you SHOULD believe that. Your argument is that businesses should not be regulated and free to do whatever the damn hell they want, because it is their business. If you apply that attitude to customers - why not workers? Why not working conditions? The logic doesn't stand up and is flawed.

Pity wrote:What about the guy being discriminated against? Who cares if he pays taxes? Him paying taxes to the government means he is able to receive support from the government; it does not entitle him to receive service from any business he wants.


Society cares if he pays his taxes. Whilst it may not be obvious to us all the time, everyone benefits from taxes. Taxes can help a place regenerate if the government has invested - the business owner would benefit. They can help fund health, they can help fund someone's education - again, the business owner benefits. Taxes can help, in many countries, give subsidies to businesses. The business owner benefits. This To deny anyone who has been paying tere tax and contributing to the society that make up the people the business owner is reliant on is completely wrong and does not make sense morally - regardless of economics.


Pity wrote:And yes, it is Apple's right to ban Muslims from their stores if they want to. Why isn't it? They own their business and pay their taxes. If a Muslim wants to buy an Apple product, too bad. They can go to Samsung or Motorola.


I feel like it is very easy for you to say this as a white kid. As you know that a white person would never be banned or asked to come in anywhere. What you're suggesting is effectively segregation in the workplace, and it isn't cool.

Pity wrote:You also fail to mention the lack of use of the law. Apple would never discriminate because 1) it's a business; their goal is to make money. 2) In today's overly-PC society, there's no way they won't face crippling backlash. Malls, shopping centers, commercial property owners, etc. will likely include in rental agreements that a business can't discriminate. Giving businesses this right is mostly symbolic and if a business wants to act on this by banning black people, they can face the financial backlash and scrutiny.


This is an economic argument. The debate is primarily social. The reason discrimination tends to stop, is, you know, people are told that it isn't right if they're doing X and they will be punished if they do X. It's a bit more extreme, but if you look at any civil rights movement the success comes when they're finally listened to and laws are in place to stop the discrimination - the evidence is there with LGBT rights in the last 10 years over the world.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 2nd August, 2016, 5:46 pm

1. This post is solely about serving customers and touches briefly on hiring. The ideology I used in this post is relevant to this topic only.

2. A man can pay taxes and can use government roads and sidewalks to reach businesses, but businesses have the right to refuse service to him. It makes absolutely zero sense that a business should be forced to serve a gay person or even a white person. Businesses who don't receive government subsidies/loans and pay their taxes have the right to serve whoever they want.

3. I am a cis-gendered white male so my opinion is irrelevant. Time to shut black people up if they comment on issues that affect white people.

4. That is why it should be illegal for the government to discriminate. I'm talking about businesses who pay their taxes, receive no government support, and operate legally.

:fml: Oh, the entitlement generation is going to ruin society. :noway:
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Kuksugaren » 2nd August, 2016, 6:42 pm

Pity wrote:1. This post is solely about serving customers and touches briefly on hiring. The ideology I used in this post is relevant to this topic only.

2. A man can pay taxes and can use government roads and sidewalks to reach businesses, but businesses have the right to refuse service to him. It makes absolutely zero sense that a business should be forced to serve a gay person or even a white person. Businesses who don't receive government subsidies/loans and pay their taxes have the right to serve whoever they want.

3. I am a cis-gendered white male so my opinion is irrelevant. Time to shut black people up if they comment on issues that affect white people.

4. That is why it should be illegal for the government to discriminate. I'm talking about businesses who pay their taxes, receive no government support, and operate legally.

:fml: Oh, the entitlement generation is going to ruin society. :noway:

The "entitlement generation"......
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Tim the Great » 10th August, 2018, 11:14 pm

I believe private businesses should be able to refuse service to anyone they as they see fit. I mean this may mean conservative business owners refusing service to gay people, but it also means owners refusing service to conservative people and to people who may be racist so. Besides refusing service to people based on their whatever would end up making the business lose money anyway.
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