Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

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Should businesses have the liberty to deny anyone service?

Yes, it is their right as a business.
7
35%
No, that leads to discrimination.
13
65%
 
Total votes : 20

Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 31st July, 2016, 11:16 pm

Before I begin, I probably ranted about this in another topic, but I honestly do not remember.

So long as they do not receive government subsidies, loans, nor grants, tax-paying businesses should have the absolute right to deny service to anyone based on sexuality, appearances, religion, sex, etc. The only exception I see to such law would be private firefighters, hospitals, clinics, security, ambulance services, and other private emergency services.

Yes, this would mean an elderly, white, and southern restaurant owner can deny service to a black person.

I believe in these business rights because:

1. It's a fundamentally correct to have as much freedom as possible. From a philosophical standpoint, no one should be forced to perform an action towards another. To me, it is logical for business owners to have the right to refuse service. It is their business, is it not?

2. Most businesses will not act on their right to do so. Even if it is legal to refuse service to a homosexual, businesses exist to produce as much revenue as possible. A minority of business owners may act on this legality, but in this technologically-based society, successful entrepreneurs would not reject money. If they do, the business will fail.

Additionally, most physical businesses operate within plazas, malls, or otherwise rent or purchase property. A company that owns a plaza will likely include a no-discrimination clause within rental agreements, so businesses cannot discriminate.

3. This stretches slightly to employment. I have mixed feelings whether businesses also have the liberties to hire anyone or reject anyone as they see fit. For example, as a retailer, I would not want to hire a transgender person wearing drag; it is simply unprofessional and quite a negative attention-catcher. On the other hand, denying someone a job based on skin color is detrimental to the economy of certain demographics.

Any thoughts and opinions are appreciated.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Jacketh » 31st July, 2016, 11:17 pm

I'll keep it open purely because its not exactly the same, but most arguments have been made here.
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PostThis post was deleted by JonathanT88 on 1st August, 2016, 9:23 pm.

Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby BryanC » 1st August, 2016, 4:58 pm

It doesn't lead to discrimination it is discrimination
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 1st August, 2016, 7:55 pm

Well, it's a business' right to discriminate if you want to make that case.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Cobalt » 1st August, 2016, 9:13 pm

hi discrimination is not a right thank u bye

long-winded version is in that literal exact same thread jack linked
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Cobalt » 1st August, 2016, 9:31 pm

Pity wrote:For example, as a retailer, I would not want to hire a transgender person wearing drag; it is simply unprofessional and quite a negative attention-catcher.

Oh god this is a GROSS misunderstanding and amalgamation of transgender with drag culture, please no.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 1st August, 2016, 9:50 pm

Discrimination isn't right, but that doesn't mean businesses shouldn't have the freedom to.
Whenever I see transgender people in public, they don't look presentable. That's just the inherent part of transitioning.

Also, it's the same because I mention employment and my post has nothing to do with religion.
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PostThis post was deleted by TheBrunswickian on 4th December, 2018, 8:23 pm.

Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 1st August, 2016, 11:23 pm

TheBrunswickian wrote:
Cobalt wrote:
Pity wrote:For example, as a retailer, I would not want to hire a transgender person wearing drag; it is simply unprofessional and quite a negative attention-catcher.

Oh god this is a GROSS misunderstanding and amalgamation of transgender with drag culture, please no.

I felt so sick reading this, pls stop


Grow a pair.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby BryanC » 2nd August, 2016, 2:06 am

Pity wrote:Discrimination isn't right, but that doesn't mean businesses shouldn't have the freedom to.
Whenever I see transgender people in public, they don't look presentable. That's just the inherent part of transitioning.

Also, it's the same because I mention employment and my post has nothing to do with religion.

No you don't have a right to discriminate
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Kuksugaren » 2nd August, 2016, 2:53 am

I have kind of a mixed opinion on this. I hope you don´t mind. I kind of used your post as format on my repsonse.

I do think certain private business should be able to discriminate as long as they don´t receive benefits from the government, but I do not think private businesses that are public accommodations should be able too. Non-profits should not be able to discriminate either.

In US law, public accommodations are generally defined as facilities, both public and private, used by the public. Examples include retail stores, rental establishments and service establishments as well as educational institutions, recreational facilities, and service centers.


This would mean for example a retail store could not deny service to someone simply on the basis of race, but something like a private club or cooperative would be able to discriminate as they please.

I believe in this because of the following:
1. I think it´s a fair compromise. It goes in between it still allows people to discriminate if they choose too, but denies them the ability to deny service people yet handle themselves as normal.
2. Anti-discrimination laws help sway public opinion in a positive direction. Looking at the United States, you can see that progressively overtime that the united states was more inclusive and fair to racial minorities after the Civil Rights act. The civil rights act made it illegal to discriminate

3. I do believe there is a trade off between freedom and justice, for lack of a better word.
I kind of believe in a "social contract". That in order to have a society you may have to give up some freedoms, but I do not think it should not be within reason.

4. In the case of employment, I don´t think these kinds of laws have any positive effect.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 2nd August, 2016, 3:02 am

By public accommodation, I thought you meant something like trains, buses, taxis, etc. I would have agreed with you on that. I still do think that even public companies like retail stores, restaurants, etc. do have the right.

Additionally, private organizations like clubs or cooperatives as you mentioned are already allowed to "discriminate" freely in the United States.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Dolly » 2nd August, 2016, 3:03 am

BryanC wrote:
Pity wrote:Discrimination isn't right, but that doesn't mean businesses shouldn't have the freedom to.
Whenever I see transgender people in public, they don't look presentable. That's just the inherent part of transitioning.

Also, it's the same because I mention employment and my post has nothing to do with religion.

No you don't have a right to discriminate


Why doesn't a business have the right? It's their business; they pay for their space; they pay taxes. If you are refused service, go to another business. :dunno:
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby BryanC » 2nd August, 2016, 3:14 am

Pity wrote:
BryanC wrote:
Pity wrote:Discrimination isn't right, but that doesn't mean businesses shouldn't have the freedom to.
Whenever I see transgender people in public, they don't look presentable. That's just the inherent part of transitioning.

Also, it's the same because I mention employment and my post has nothing to do with religion.

No you don't have a right to discriminate


Why doesn't a business have the right? It's their business; they pay for their space; they pay taxes. If you are refused service, go to another business. :dunno:

No you don't have right to deny service for any reason
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PostThis post was deleted by TheBrunswickian on 4th December, 2018, 8:23 pm.

Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby DrakoVongola1 » 2nd August, 2016, 9:02 am

Pity wrote:Well, it's a business' right to discriminate if you want to make that case.

Actually its not, at least in America you are not allowed to discriminate based on race, gender, religion, and in a growing number of jurisdictions sexuality

Discrimination is wrong, you don't deserve the right to refuse service to someone because you're a bigoted fuckwit. Not to mention its just stupid from a business standpoint

Also you really shouldn't talk about trans people when you don't know anything about them :/
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Sturgeon » 2nd August, 2016, 9:24 am

Can I just say that this discussion was hypothetical, so saying 'In my country it's against the law to deny service to someone based off of sex/race/sexuality' is a totally awful argument point as in a world where businesses had the right to refuse to serve someone those pieces of legislation would not exist.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Kuksugaren » 2nd August, 2016, 9:38 am

merkel wrote:Can I just say that this discussion was hypothetical, so saying 'In my country it's against the law to deny service to someone based off of sex/race/sexuality' is a totally awful argument point as in a world where businesses had the right to refuse to serve someone those pieces of legislation would not exist.

I was actually about to say something similar.
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Re: Should businesses have the liberty to deny service to anyone?

Unread postby Sturgeon » 2nd August, 2016, 9:42 am

As for my view on the matter, theoretically, in a true free market, this would work. Pity is correct in saying it is in a competitive company's best interest to appear as welcoming to as many group as possible. It's no surprise that many companies now have started featuring LGBT (Though mainly just LGB) aspects in their advertising. Adverts by Sainsbury's, Robert Dyas and McDonalds come to mind, but there are countless more.

The problem is, however, we arguably don't live in a truly free market. I believe, somehow paradoxically, that in a free market monopolies should not exist, therefore the market requires certain regulation by an external source to keep them from appearing.

A hypothetical situation comes to mind:

A gay has been wandering a desert for hours, he is lost and very hot, thirsty and tired. Where in the distance he sees a seemingly nice little village, with an inn, a saloon and grocery store. However, after entering all of these places he is told that they will not serve 'his kind'. Sure, they usually follow a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, but before getting lost this gay had been on his way home from pride and was still wearing his rainbow crop-top and ripped denim hot pants.

They inform him that this is the only village for another 30km, and have made it very clear that no establishment here will serve him. So the poor gay hobbles off to die next to some dingy cactus.


In order for your vision to work, Pity, I feel it would require more needless and expensive regulation than the current legislation in place that forbids business from refusing to serve certain groups. The only way it could work would see the setting up of government subsidised businesses built in little hot-spots everywhere, ensuring that there was always a bed/source of food and water around that would serve those groups. Now imagine how much of tax-payers money would be needed to fund this costly venture. Now that, my friend, is the true breach of our individual liberties.
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