the armenian genocide

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the armenian genocide

Unread postby ausboy93 » 24th April, 2015, 8:39 pm

Hey guys!

The 24th of April was the 100th anniversary of an event that has basically be swept under the rug. The armenian genocide. I myself have armenian ancestry and have heard the miraculous story of how my great grandmother was the sole survivor from her family and how she escaped. Everyone being killed except her aunt who was taken away for a forced conversion or marriage, and never knowing what came of her.

I know a lot of people don't like kim kardashian but I have so much respect for her. She always brings attention to the topic, she even went to armenia to bring awareness this year, and on the 100th anniversary made a status about it. She is using her fame to bring to light topics that should have been spoken about 100 years ago, and she's so educated about it. She was saying how Turkey shouldn't be blamed, because it was something that happened 100 years ago. Recognition is needed to heal the wounds and move on in a positive light.

Recently the pope uttered the word genocide when he was speaking about it, which caused outrage in turkey again. It is actually something turkey spends a lot of money to cover up, but I feel like it can't be swept under a rug and forgotten for much longer.

I found an article about what she has said about the event and it's very smart and personal.
http://time.com/3835074/kim-kardashian- ... -genocide/

I was wondering what you guys thought of the topic? Did you know about it before and do you think it needs international recognition as a genocide? There are many countries that do recognise it as one, in recent news Germany is making the steps to change history books to say genocide rather than massacre.

One last point I wanna make is that yes it was a long time ago, but the wound still feels fresh to me as it basically changed completely the identity of my family. and this didn't just happen to the Armenians under the ottoman rule, the assyrians, Greeks and kurds were also basically doomed by this genocide
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Callum » 24th April, 2015, 8:56 pm

I've known about it for years, I was taught about it in school. I do believe that it should be classed as a genocide, just like the holocaust is considered one. It's also a disgrace that Turkey still refuses to acknowledge that it was a genocide.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby ilikepotatoes » 24th April, 2015, 9:28 pm

Well branding something as a genocide is something that has to reach consensus especially with the UN General Assembly. It's supposed to fit a certain criteria such as (but not limited to), a group of people killing another group of people based solely on their race, gender, creed, etc. It also has to be brought up for a matter of a series of debates. Also, the group that is being killed apparently has to be either a minority or a group that shows an uneven balance of power, for example, the government killing off a minority racialized group.

What is certain though, is that civil society groups, NGOs, and other activist groups such as Amnesty International actually has the power to lobby governments to recognize a certain event a genocide in front of the UNGA. If it reaches a majority vote in the assembly, it then becomes declared as a genocide. Also, throughout history, the term 'genocide' has almost always been named after the event has taken place. One of the few exceptions would be the Crisis in Darfur, which was deemed as a genocide in 2004 while the event was and is still happening.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby ausboy93 » 24th April, 2015, 10:02 pm

ilikepotatoes wrote:Well branding something as a genocide is something that has to reach consensus especially with the UN General Assembly. It's supposed to fit a certain criteria such as (but not limited to), a group of people killing another group of people based solely on their race, gender, creed, etc. It also has to be brought up for a matter of a series of debates. Also, the group that is being killed apparently has to be either a minority or a group that shows an uneven balance of power, for example, the government killing off a minority racialized group.

What is certain though, is that civil society groups, NGOs, and other activist groups such as Amnesty International actually has the power to lobby governments to recognize a certain event a genocide in front of the UNGA. If it reaches a majority vote in the assembly, it then becomes declared as a genocide. Also, throughout history, the term 'genocide' has almost always been named after the event has taken place. One of the few exceptions would be the Crisis in Darfur, which was deemed as a genocide in 2004 while the event was and is still happening.


Well basically the ottoman empire killed the men and intellectuals, and either forced conversions on the women and children marched them out to the Syrian desert with no food or water to basically just die. The entire reason of doing this was to eradicate the armenian population which was a minority in the country. The Armenians were and still are christians, and the ottomans were Muslims. There was pressure from Europe because they treatcotizens christians as second class citizens and they were refusing to recognise them as anything better. There were riots and ralleys againsy the regime and when Russia was invading turkey, the Armenians saw the Russians as fellow brethren and sympathised to them.

The ottomans saw this as an act of treason to their collapsing empire and made the decision to exterminate the entire race.

I like that you bring up the definition of genocide cause the term "genocide" was coined in the early 20th century to define the atrocities happening to the armenian people. In preparation for the invasion of Poland, Adolf Hitler in 1939 was quotes saying "who, after all, speaks today or the annihilation of the Armenians?"

And in 1985 the United Nations sub-commission on prevention of discrimination and protection of minorities updated it's report on the "Question of the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide" (a.k.a the Whitaker Report). They came up with the conclusion that the ottoman systematic massacre of Armenians during world war I had met the criteria for the UN definition of genocide, and to be defined as one of the genocides of the 20th century.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby ausboy93 » 24th April, 2015, 10:10 pm

To anyone interested: Amal Clooney (George Clooney's wife), and international lawyer made a speech whilst representing the Republic of armenia against turkey accusing turkey of being hypocritical of "[turkey's] double standards on freedom of expression for defending a Turkish leftist who described the armenian genocide as an 'international lie'".
https://youtu.be/WJ9_vW6FcTs
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Madasahat » 25th April, 2015, 12:38 am

I know all about it actually and Turkey is simply disgracing itself. Owning this like a man and moving on is a much better move. Its not like Ottoman Empire hasn't done worse, so I don't see the problem here. Its a past government, and a dictatorship one at that. People will understand, like they did with all such countries with a dark government in their past.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby M4DNESS » 28th April, 2015, 7:27 am

I have been thinking about what could have been done to stop it in the first place? Any thoughts? I myself never came to any conclusions.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby ausboy93 » 5th May, 2015, 6:26 am

M4DNESS wrote:I have been thinking about what could have been done to stop it in the first place? Any thoughts? I myself never came to any conclusions.


well there was pressure from the european powers such as england, russia and france to treat the christian populations (armenians, greeks, assyrians, etc.) better. if they established the same rights as the muslim population, then this wouldn't have happened.
the armenians couldn't defend themselves either.
it would have been difficult but if they left the ottoman empire at the same time as the baltic countries, then this wouldn't have happened to them i don't think.. but that would have been extremely difficult, as geographically armenia was not near the baltic countries
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby colonelaugust » 15th May, 2015, 4:38 pm

Personally, I see the fact that the Armenian genocide is not being acknowledged as a genocide by so many governments in the west as a shame.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Hitch_22 » 18th May, 2015, 1:13 am

I remember in my freshman English class we spent some time with an incredible poem I've been trying to relocate without much success. My teacher explicitly referred to it as "the Armenian genocide." I get fairly sick when events like those from a hundred years ago through today, especially in parts of Africa, are referred to as "acts of genocide" rather than "genocide."

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/10/world ... ocide.html
Stories like that make me slightly depressed. If I find that poem, I'll try to remember to post it. In the mean time, I wholeheartedly agree that it's about time to recognize events for what they were.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby ausboy93 » 18th May, 2015, 3:50 am

Thanks for your Support! And I'd love to read that poem
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Hitch_22 » 22nd May, 2015, 9:21 pm

Wow, apparently my memory is not so fantastic. It turns out the poem I remembered was a class project we did. We did a "mimesis" (as my teacher called it) of Juliet S Kono's poem about Japanese internment (found here: http://breezy13.wikispaces.com/Juliet+S.+Kono.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Flower » 20th April, 2018, 10:17 pm

I always find it hilarious that the people who live ten thousand miles away [and also hundred years later] can whine about something that never happened. You heard me, that never happened.

If you're willing to listen the lies of the Armenian Lobby, go ahead. Rest of you, lets make a journey to the Turkish history after Christ and debunk every lie.

Turkish Presidency symbol is a star covered with sixteen small stars, each representing a historical Turkish state. [Not all of them, just the ones that trembled the world with their might :D if we counted all of them, it makes 50+]

Turks originate from the plains of Central Asia. When the Turks first arrived to the Europe under the leadership of the Scourge of God, Attila; they driven all the people into in front of them the Europe and shaped the continent. After the Attila's death, they retreated to the Turkish lands. They were the pure Turks, as they were nomadic and free of amy foreign influence. This made them easy to relocate and invent new things, like pastırma and yoghurt / ayran. [You know that its Turkish, right?]

Then we see White Huns, then the first state with the word Turk on it, Göktürk's. Later the Uyghurs, first non-nomadic Turkish state. After that, we see the first muslim Turk state, Karahan; after the Saltuk Buğra Han converted to Islam circa 850~ but due to the incompatibility of the Turkic culture to the arabic culture, they never showed the muslim characteristics. Women called Hatun / Hanım which is equal, yes equal to the Han himself. Hatun's could declare war, had a seat on council, ruled the country, accepted emissaries etc.

Then, everything starts with the Great Seljuks. After their victory at Malazgirt [modern day Muş] at 1071, roughly a thousand years ago. With this victory, Turks won the Anatolia. After that, Alparslan ordered his beys to conquer the rest of it for him. Five beys began to conquer Anatolia, which led to the First Era of Beyliks, smaller tributaries of the Seljuks who gained their independence when the empire collapsed.

Then Kutalmışoğlu Süleyman reunites them under the Flag of "Anatolian Seljuks". He then starts to expand westwards, to the Byzantium. The locals, called Rum's (Greeks) join the Turks because of the Byzantium's harsh policies.
Most of them converts to Islam and assimilate into the massive Turkish immigration from Central Asia. Another Turkish state, Harzemshahs defeat them.

After the collapse of the Anatolian Seljuks, Second Era of Beyliks began. In 1299, a fierce boy called Osman founds the Ottoman Empire. Time after time, the Empire grows. When Yıldırım Beyazid sieges the Constantinople, Timurlenk gathers his army and attacks the Ottomans. Two armies meet at the modern day Ankara. Ottomans were defeated because they were so assimilated into the arabic culture that they wont see the ancient Turkish war strategy, the Crescent tactic (i.e Wolf's Trap) coming.

Timur divides the Ottoman Empire to four, giving each prince a quarter of the empire. Guess what? none of the balkanic peoples revolt during this chaotic period. Why? Because Ottoman rule is better than any other state's.

Turks were soldiers.
They never became more.
They never became merchants nor capitalists.
Who did that job?
Armenians and Jews.

Turks never banned their languages, never persecuted their religions, banned them from military for obvious reasons. So, for 623 years no Armenian died for the land they lived but they lived with all the money they hoarded. You know who died to protect these lands? Turks.

So, year is 1900~. Abdulhamid the Second rules the empire. Russia secretly gives wapons to Armenians to drive Turks from their lands. When Abdulhamid learns about this, he begans to arm the Kurdish aghas, thus forming the Hamidiye Brigades.

In the 1915~, a coup d'etat happens and Enver Pasha *oops, trigger warning Armenians* rules the Empire, siding with Germany at the WW1. Russia attacks the Kars region and uses the Armenians as a fifth hand at the region. They sabotage, infiltrate, raid etc. Due to the war at more than 10 fronts, that region was empty. All the able bodied men were transferred to the west. And the lunatic Enver killed 90.000 elite Turkish soldiers trying to attack Russians on winter without amy equipment.

So, there was literally no Turkish men there. Then Armenians started to raid Turkish villages and killed everyone. Because they were promised a "Greater Armenia" by Russia after the war, they wanted to" cleanse as much as ground they can. Nene Hatun, a newly wed woman who just gave birth to a two days old baby fought the Armenians. You know why? Because all the men were away. The mosque announced the Aziziye is at Russian / Armenian hands. So, she left her baby to his crib and took a knife from the kitchen, only to reclaim Sivas. When they say her after the war "how could you leaved your child?" she answered; "my son can live without a mother but not without a country. So, Enver Pasha ordered a mandatory exodus of Armenians from Anatolia.

If you object this, look up to your history; the Trail of Tears. Its the same.

Natives were a threat, the government sent them to a remote place. Most of them died from sickness / starvation on the road = Armenians were acting as a tool of a foreign power, government sent them to a remote place. Most of them died from sickness / starvation on the road.

Have you ever seen someone calling ToT a genocide? You can't because of the hypocrisy of the "modern" west.

Guess what? After the Blue Eyed Hero, Mustafa Kemal defeated the English at Gallipoli, Bolsheviks overthrew the tzar and became pro-turkic because they saw Atatürk as a leader who tried to free his country from capitalism and supported the Turkish Republic with political and monetary support. Without the Russia backing up, Kazım Karabekir who commanded the only army which isn't disbanded by the Treaty of Sevres. Illegally of course. Why? BECAUSE IF KARABEKIR DISBANDED THE NINTH ARMY, NO ONE COULD'VE STOPPED ARMENIANS FROM ETHNIC CLEANSING. Karabekir easily defeated the Armenians, and signed the Treaty of Gyumri making the Armenia first country to recognize Turkish Republic. His first action after the war was to open an orphan house for the kids orphaned by the Armenian butchers.

Its a shame that lobbying can alter the truth so drastically. People just never think about it. They don't want to know, they want to believe.

If Ottomans were "genocidal"; I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be;

*Greeks, after 500 years of ottoman control. Thats at least 16 generations, which is pretty easy to assimilate.
*Armenians, after 600 years of ottoman control. And before them Seljuks. If they wanted, they could erase Armenians from the face of history and they would be anpther sad failed nation. But they didn't bocoso thoy'ro gonocodol torks.
*Arabs, maybe even Islam.
*Jews. Which is pretty iconic because Spain witch hunted Jews both imperial and fascist times. And Turkey both old amd modern welcomed them. [Did you know that Turkish "pirates" "kidnapped" jews from spain to Istanbul with the Sultan's orders? You didn't. Bocoso thoy'ro gonocodol torks.
*Serbs. Even though they love to #RemoveKebab, Kebab could easily removed delete from existance easily in the 450 years.

This list has no limits, just like the human ignorance.

Ps: They are still same, but killing different Turks. None of you ever heard Khojaly Massacre don't you? But you talk soooo cocky about genocides and massacres. It seems nobody cares when the victim is Turkish.

I'm tired.
Because I know I triggered some *unique delicate snowflakes* who happen to care when an Armenian dies and not care when Turks de because they never had the courage to think from any other perspective other than theirs, which is indoctrinated.
Go ahead, rant and rave.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby TheBrunswickian » 21st April, 2018, 11:07 pm

^ this is why the world has lots of issues with turkey
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Calcifer » 21st April, 2018, 11:29 pm

Not to get particularly involved on one side or the other, but if your'd like a decent view on this you can take a look here - The Young Turks' Crime against Humanity: The Armenian Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing in the Ottoman Empire, by Taner Akçam, an outspoken Turk who with access to a lot of the Ottoman documents which are otherwise suppressed by the Turkish government, because obviously they don't want to be called out as having perpetrated genocide.

The author, Taner Akçam, is possibly one of the world's leading experts on the subject.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Flower » 22nd April, 2018, 9:48 am

Calcifer wrote:Not to get particularly involved on one side or the other, but if your'd like a decent view on this you can take a look here - The Young Turks' Crime against Humanity: The Armenian Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing in the Ottoman Empire, by Taner Akçam, an outspoken Turk who with access to a lot of the Ottoman documents which are otherwise suppressed by the Turkish government, because obviously they don't want to be called out as having perpetrated genocide.

The author, Taner Akçam, is possibly one of the world's leading experts on the subject.


"An outspoken Turk". Hahahahahahahah.

Someone having a Turkish originated name doesn't mean someone is Turkish,, as he is Kurdish. He is imprisoned for his support Kurdish Separatist acts. and then he escaped from PRISON.

Obviously he doesn't have any credibility in my eyes. Its like saying "Qaddafi says America is a terrorist" is credible.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Calcifer » 22nd April, 2018, 10:46 am

'Akçam was born in Ölçek village near Ardahan, Turkey to Dursun and Perihan Akçam.'

Born in Turkey, well that's a good start.

'He studied economics at the Middle East Technical University in Ankara, and graduated in 1976.'

And then went to a Turkish university, he's sounding pretty Turkish to me.

Also, you don't think there's something wrong with being imprisoned for speaking out against your government's actions? Is free speech not a concept in Turkey?

You can't just dismiss an author's work because of your personal bias. Certainly, he's coming at the genocide from a position of bias himself, but that only affects his interpretations and not his evidence collection which, as I said previously, is sourced from documents from the Ottoman Empire's own records.
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Re: the armenian genocide

Unread postby Flower » 22nd April, 2018, 1:44 pm

Calcifer wrote:'Akçam was born in Ölçek village near Ardahan, Turkey to Dursun and Perihan Akçam.'

Born in Turkey, well that's a good start.

'He studied economics at the Middle East Technical University in Ankara, and graduated in 1976.'

And then went to a Turkish university, he's sounding pretty Turkish to me.

Also, you don't think there's something wrong with being imprisoned for speaking out against your government's actions? Is free speech not a concept in Turkey?

You can't just dismiss an author's work because of your personal bias. Certainly, he's coming at the genocide from a position of bias himself, but that only affects his interpretations and not his evidence collection which, as I said previously, is sourced from documents from the Ottoman Empire's own records.


There is no Kurdish university hence we live in Turkey. Everyone goes to Turkish universites. Have you ever seen a russian university in America? Are you serious?

Quote from Turkish wikipedia, where the important aspects are not censored (just use google translate, idk);

"1975'te yayına başlayan Devrimci Gençlik dergisinin sorumlu yazı işleri müdürü olarak, dergide komünizm ve Kürtçülük propagandası yapıldığı iddiasıyla yargılandı ve 1976'da tutuklandı, 1977'de 9 yıl hapis cezasına çarptırıldı. 12 Mart 1977' Ankara Merkez Kapalı Cezaevi'nden kaçtı. "

He is not imprisoned because he defended the alleged genocide. Unlike France or Greece, anyone can share their opinion without fear of imprisonment as many do now.

That is not what got him imprisoned. He supported separatism and terrorism. It is something that will get you imprisoned in any country. Also, 1960-80 is the most democratic era of Turkey, even to an extend that it allowed so much freedom that the different ideologies started to kill each other which lead to a militart coup d'etat.

So, what you say is ad hominem. There is no correlation between defending terrorism and free speech or speaking against the government. Also, if you want to read a Turkish historian; try İlber Ortaylı and his mentor Halil İnalcık. Both born into Ottoman Empire. And their cv's are way much better than a separatist Kurd.

This is your problem.
You can't speak Turkish.
You can't read the Ottoman archives, which is also Turkish.
You never knew anyone who can read the Ottoman archives.
Most of the people who claim to "read the archives and see the truth" never seen it, as it is closed to everyone after a "historian" found forging documents.
Yet you believe everything they say.

Reading Ottoman Turkish is a proffesion. For example;

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Top left is Old Turkic, used 1300 years ago. Top right is Modern Turkish. And the bottom is Ottoman "Turkish", which as a native i only understand four words. [İstifade, Talep Etmek, Kıl(mak)]

In order to understand Ottoman Turkish,, you have to know three languages; Turkish, Persian and Arabic. For example; "Mühendis civanım geldi" = "My young engineer came."

Mühendis = Arabic, mü + hendese = lit. Mathematics maker = engineer.
Civan as you know the Indo-European counterpart Joven; young.
Gel + di = From Turkish verb, come conjugated past.

Yes, It follows Turkish grammar rules, but it is hard to say. It requires intense training to learn. But even you know the words, you can't read it. Because it is written in arabic alphabet, which is an abjad. That means there is no vowels;

[Ketebe (arabic / ottoman verb for "to write")]

Katib (scribe)
Kitab (book)
Kütüb (books)
Kutub (pole)
Mekteb (school)
Mektub (letter)

First four is written the same; k-t-b.
Last two is written also the same; m-k-t-b.

You can only know the difference from the context. This requires mastery because even there are incidents that Ottoman Viziers read it wrong. [devir (age) as davar (cattle)]

Not everyone can read it, nevertheless not all of them are believable. Halil İnalcık is credible because he learned Ottoman first, then learned the latin written Turkish later. So, check what do they say if you want to see from another perspective.
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