Hey Guys. Recently I had a talk with a friend about whether homosexuality is curable or not.
He pointed out a lot of arguments like the "Conversion Therapy" to name one, and his own personal experience(his friends who claimed to had been "cured" and is now dating girls happily), and of course, religion. I stand on the ground that homosexuality isn't something that's changeable and I would like solid evidences from studies and researches on articles to present to him. I would also like an effective argument from our History (e.g the ancient pederasty) and Religious resources (bible, etc) to have an effective argument with him

I don't know if this is the right thread or place to put this, if this somehow violates the rules then by all means, delete it. I hope I'm not offending anyone with this. Your response(s) will be very much appreciated. Thank you!

P.S: I can't use the "We can't change our heterosexuality either!" because I'm somewhat a little bisexual and he's just going to use the "You're not completely straight so you won't know!" also, I would like an argument against the "God made us this way", "God can change everything.", "Humans were created to be attracted to the opposite sex."

tl;dr - friend is being an asshole, told me to go see a psychiatrist after I told him the guy we met on the gym has nice asseyes. girls are hot seriously but a guy gotta have some little guy on guy times once in a while if you know what i mean? so now i need some effective argument to make him stfu.

When you say he has personal experience, do you mean that he "was" gay, but claimed to get cured?

If so, just tell him he's still gay.

No, he meant that he has friends who had been "cured".

Conversion Therapy does nothing but bury true feelings under a bunch of bullshit.

Tell him that Homosexuality isn't a disease but that he should probably get his stupidity checked out
Or hit him in the head with a bible and say, "Hurts, doesn't it?"


If anyone was wondering if I give good advice or not... there's your answer

I'm afraid I don't have your resources, but I have a response.

From personal experience:

Yes, conversion therapy does work, to some extent. You will still hear the people say that they struggle with same sex attraction, though.

It's alot like putting you back in the closet. They tell you that you don't want to be this way, you believe them, and suppress your homosexual tendencies.

It's no cure, just a suppressant.

'God doesn't exist' is a pretty effective argument. Obviously logic hasn't worked in this sense, so what makes you think you can use logic as a means to understanding in any other sense?

You want an effective argument from history or religion? Good luck. Thanks to religion, homosexuality has been repressed for the last few thousands years. There's no history to it.

If you want a logical argument, quote several studies over conversion therapies, and the high rates of failure. Or the Templeton Prayer Experiment, proving that prayer doesn't do anything, but it does cause performance anxiety, causing more complications. Be sure to elaborate on the fact that major Psychological foundations agree that homosexuality cannot be 'cured'.

Also, don't fail to mention his obsession with the PRIVATE sexual inclination of homosexuals. It'll be sure to make him mad.

homosexuality isnt anything you can cure because you cant cure someone of their identity. its like trying to convince denzel washington that hes white. it aint gonna happen.

Homosexuality isn't anything to be cured to even say it in that context is offensive as fuck. I'm fucking proud to be gay fuck that ignorance.

Troll maybe.

Edit: Sorry to offended by the ignorance to give you any sort of detailed argument it's a blatantly obvious thing.

Cursed, as adorable as I think you are, you illustrate a fine example here.

If you expect respect about being gay, don't insult someone's faith. That's just as offensive, if not more, and won't lead the discussion anywhere.

Why do you feel the need to prove anything? You don't.

In much the same way people can have times when they doubt their sexuality, I would imagine that the same phase as a twelve year old could pop back up. But more deluded then originally. Ask your friend if he had doubts about his sexuality when he first realised he was gay.

Ideology is different than attacking the person.

"Curable" implies disease. Saying it is a disease is a conclusion that is unsubstantiated--not a valid premise to start the discussion. This is sort of a fallacy of complex question--like if I ask, "So have you finally stopped beating your wife?" If you say "yes", you admit you used to beat your wife. If you say "no", then you are saying that you are still beating your wife. What about the possibility you're a model husband? What about the possibility "gay" isn't a disease? A good starting point would be to discuss what is and is not a disease. Did you know that some deaf people see being deaf as a culture and do not want their children/friends/family/etc. to have their hearing restored? Did you know that bipolar patients often enjoy their manic symptoms and actually perform better with some mild mania? Shouldn't part of the definition of disease involve negative consequences in your life with no real benefit? Shouldn't such consequences exist without regard to your social milieu?




Relationships, sex, love, etc. are complex things. Most psychologists now seem to think that sexuality exists on a spectrum. Almost no one is entirely straight or gay. We might not even be the same at every moment in our lives. For example, I am open to meeting the right girl even though I've never liked them before. I'm not going to just take on a label then dictate to my feelings based on that label. What if the label turns out to not fit? So what exactly is "cured" in his examples? We can certainly change our behavior, and we may even be happy with aspects of a heterosexual relationship. Maybe we enjoy fitting in, having biological children, etc. Perhaps some people can see that as more important than their emotional/sexual inclinations. Or maybe some people are just somewhat bi and can fairly easily just focus on one part of their sexuality. But, again, we must first establish why anyone should require a cure before it makes sense to talk about whether or not the cures work. And you can't trust the testimony of the "patients". They could be in denial or too embarrassed to admit they aren't really cured. You'd need some sort of objective, thorough, long-term study. You'd have to be quite creative with the methodology, as well.





I wrote a good bit earlier in another thread about homosexuality being a choice. It would fit well here, too, but I don't mean to re-type it. You might like to have a look at it, though.





If he's straight, ask if he can change his sexuality. If he can't, say you can't either. If he disagrees, tell him he can't know 'cause he's straight. If he says his friends told him, tell him they're in denial or were never truly gay to begin with. If he's hot and says he can, make him prove it!...;P





I'm not sure I understand the part. Clarify?





Created by whom? Proof? (I AM religious, myself, but he can't just assume creation unless you let him. And how does he know we were created for the opposite sex? Who's to say he isn't the weird one? In fact, there was at least one study I've heard about saying that homosexuality helps to regulate population growth and is more common in societies that are experiencing rapid population growth. Also, homosexuality is said to be prevalent in the animal kingdom. So what is natural? What is unnatural? Maybe he says natural is man with woman because a child can come about. But children don't come about from kissing, hand holding, cuddling, oral sex, or sex with contraceptives. So are all of those unnatural? Are they just as bad as homosexuality? If not, then why? He must prove his case. If he doesn't already know the proof, if he has to take time to think and reason, point out that he's just a bigot trying to come up with an argument on the spot to support his tenuous, biased, hateful beliefs. Perhaps insinuate he's just a product of his surroundings, family, etc.





In my experience, the best way to shut people up is by giving them enough rope to hang themselves. Deconstructing someone else's position is easier than constructing your own. Get him all mixed up, call attention to contradictions and bias in his belief system, always make him prove his premises before you even discuss his conclusions. Ask lots of questions so he digs a nice deep hole to be buried in!...lol In the end, you may be better off ignoring such behavior and avoiding him entirely if he can't talk about anything else. Some people are toxic. Recognize them early and run away. I think it is good, however, to consider these things. Thinking through them is good for your own development and clarity of thought.

Good luck, and keep it light-hearted!

~t

I wouldn't say it's quite as offensive. A widespread assumption, which nearly everybody in our society accepts -- atheists included -– is that religious faith should be protected by an abnormally thick wall of respect. Whenever, say, an argument arises over homosexuality or abortion, you can rest assured that there will be a faith of some sort (usually Christianity in the Western world) involved in a discussion over radio or TV, like their opinion is on the level of a doctor, psychologist, or even a moral philosopher.

That's my problem. The whole point of religious faith, its strength, is that it does not depend on rational justification. The rest of us are expected to defend our prejudices. But ask a religious person to justify their faith and you infringe ‘religious liberty’. The hypocrisy is hilarious, isn't it?

Please sit on my face and ass-phyxiate me.

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Say this...
...do this.

Sure, homosexuality can be cured through ones christian faith. Whether or not its a good thing, I'm not sure. Its all just a matter of willpower and understanding the causes of homosexuality. Studies by the American Journal of Psychiatry show that psychotherapy is indeed less effective than conversion to the Christian faith in making homosexuals into heterosexuals or celibates.
That's why much of the ex-gay community are born again Christians.
With God nothing is impossible. Science claims that homosexuality is incurable as it is not a disease or mental condition. But one simply needs to believe that the power of God is greater than any other force of nature and can "rid" someone of their homosexual inclinations.

^