Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/server

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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Ethán » 21st August, 2017, 4:21 pm

Kaspar wrote:
Jacketh wrote:From what I can see, there are two routes we can go with this. We can make it exclusive and for already signed up members, and have a quota like number of posts or something. Or, we can leave it totally open and even allow non-GTF people to use it and even advertise it to people on LGBTeens and whatnot, and then encourage the people using it to then sign up to GTF.

I think most people signed up would prefer the former option of exclusivity, but the latter could be a consideration and be helpful in growing the site.


And yeah, I agree with Pity on the thing that if the chat was open, we wouldn't be able to check completely any details of a person. Making users sign up to the server through GTF removes that. Having Discord as a chat for the smaller, closed community is more beneficial imo

Disagree, GTF is dying and we need to do something drastic to change this. Yes we have this amazing tight knit community but that's also been part of our downfall, it's very hard for members to really become established and feel part of or community, I think opening it up to a wider range of people would only be beneficial. The way to do this would be do use the amazing 'role' feature Discord has, and similar to what we've been doing with the House Cup only give access to a "general chat" and then upon creating an account and introducing themselves the person will then gain access to another/other chats.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Jimjam » 21st August, 2017, 4:26 pm

A commie Discord I'm on has an #iron-curtain in which chat users are vetted and given access to the rest of the discord after some verification to protect from right wing raids and the like and I honestly don't see why we couldn't do that. Discord is such a user friendly platform, running flash on chrome can be a pain and the desktop version of discord is fine, plus we can get dogs that post random pictures of dogs which is all we really want in the world.

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It is nice to see we're open to change after the kerfuffle with GTF/Housecup Discord. Honestly I think this is a good idea that will ultimately enhance how users interact with the forum and I don't think it will detract anything more than the video chat always does, they can coexist just fine and really what we want is an experience and the ability to interact and Discord is to be blunt - better and great for mobile. If users miss video chat we can easily set up a tinychat link till the video chat feature is rolled out.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Jacketh » 21st August, 2017, 4:44 pm

Jimjam wrote:Image

It is nice to see we're open to change after the kerfuffle with GTF/Housecup Discord. Honestly I think this is a good idea that will ultimately enhance how users interact with the forum and I don't think it will detract anything more than the video chat always does, they can coexist just fine and really what we want is an experience and the ability to interact and Discord is to be blunt - better and great for mobile. If users miss video chat we can easily set up a tinychat link till the video chat feature is rolled out.


As you're fully aware, you started that Discord once you threw your toys out of the pram once you were told the House Cup Discord was not to be made into GTF chat and that anyone can join, and then you told us you would instead make a new Discord server and advertise that as a "gaymers" chat, before changing it to a "gay chat" and posting it twice on the GTF Facebook Group after being told not to.

It remains the case that anyone advertising relentlessly any Discord community or any community on chat, the forum, or on GTF's Facebook Group - as you were - is breaking the rules.

There was no "kerfuffle" over the House Cup Discord. The House Cup Discord was always for House Cup members. You tried to turn it into something it was not intended for.

As I'm sure you understand, we want anything associated with GTF considered (like it is being here) and properly moderated.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Kaspar » 21st August, 2017, 4:46 pm

Ethán wrote:
Kaspar wrote:
Jacketh wrote:From what I can see, there are two routes we can go with this. We can make it exclusive and for already signed up members, and have a quota like number of posts or something. Or, we can leave it totally open and even allow non-GTF people to use it and even advertise it to people on LGBTeens and whatnot, and then encourage the people using it to then sign up to GTF.

I think most people signed up would prefer the former option of exclusivity, but the latter could be a consideration and be helpful in growing the site.


And yeah, I agree with Pity on the thing that if the chat was open, we wouldn't be able to check completely any details of a person. Making users sign up to the server through GTF removes that. Having Discord as a chat for the smaller, closed community is more beneficial imo

Disagree, GTF is dying and we need to do something drastic to change this. Yes we have this amazing tight knit community but that's also been part of our downfall, it's very hard for members to really become established and feel part of or community, I think opening it up to a wider range of people would only be beneficial. The way to do this would be do use the amazing 'role' feature Discord has, and similar to what we've been doing with the House Cup only give access to a "general chat" and then upon creating an account and introducing themselves the person will then gain access to another/other chats.


Incorporating roles as a way to limit access for guests is... a very good idea actually, Ethan! We would ideally want to open up to new people but at the same time rather not make this an anarchic pile of random weirdos in the chat.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Ethán » 21st August, 2017, 4:56 pm

Kaspar wrote:
Ethán wrote:
Kaspar wrote:
Jacketh wrote:From what I can see, there are two routes we can go with this. We can make it exclusive and for already signed up members, and have a quota like number of posts or something. Or, we can leave it totally open and even allow non-GTF people to use it and even advertise it to people on LGBTeens and whatnot, and then encourage the people using it to then sign up to GTF.

I think most people signed up would prefer the former option of exclusivity, but the latter could be a consideration and be helpful in growing the site.


And yeah, I agree with Pity on the thing that if the chat was open, we wouldn't be able to check completely any details of a person. Making users sign up to the server through GTF removes that. Having Discord as a chat for the smaller, closed community is more beneficial imo

Disagree, GTF is dying and we need to do something drastic to change this. Yes we have this amazing tight knit community but that's also been part of our downfall, it's very hard for members to really become established and feel part of or community, I think opening it up to a wider range of people would only be beneficial. The way to do this would be do use the amazing 'role' feature Discord has, and similar to what we've been doing with the House Cup only give access to a "general chat" and then upon creating an account and introducing themselves the person will then gain access to another/other chats.


Incorporating roles as a way to limit access for guests is... a very good idea actually, Ethan! We would ideally want to open up to new people but at the same time rather not make this an anarchic pile of random weirdos in the chat.

I know it's a good idea :tea:
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Ethán » 21st August, 2017, 4:57 pm

Jacketh wrote:
Jimjam wrote:Image

It is nice to see we're open to change after the kerfuffle with GTF/Housecup Discord. Honestly I think this is a good idea that will ultimately enhance how users interact with the forum and I don't think it will detract anything more than the video chat always does, they can coexist just fine and really what we want is an experience and the ability to interact and Discord is to be blunt - better and great for mobile. If users miss video chat we can easily set up a tinychat link till the video chat feature is rolled out.


As you're fully aware, you started that Discord once you threw your toys out of the pram once you were told the House Cup Discord was not to be made into GTF chat and that anyone can join, and then you told us you would instead make a new Discord server and advertise that as a "gaymers" chat, before changing it to a "gay chat" and posting it twice on the GTF Facebook Group after being told not to.

It remains the case that anyone advertising relentlessly any Discord community or any community on chat, the forum, or on GTF's Facebook Group - as you were - is breaking the rules.

There was no "kerfuffle" over the House Cup Discord. The House Cup Discord was always for House Cup members. You tried to turn it into something it was not intended for.

As I'm sure you understand, we want anything associated with GTF considered (like it is being here) and properly moderated.

As long as you don't throw your toys out the cot like when they tried to make a staff Discord :eli:
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Sokol » 21st August, 2017, 5:04 pm

Ethán wrote:
Kaspar wrote:
Jacketh wrote:From what I can see, there are two routes we can go with this. We can make it exclusive and for already signed up members, and have a quota like number of posts or something. Or, we can leave it totally open and even allow non-GTF people to use it and even advertise it to people on LGBTeens and whatnot, and then encourage the people using it to then sign up to GTF.

I think most people signed up would prefer the former option of exclusivity, but the latter could be a consideration and be helpful in growing the site.


And yeah, I agree with Pity on the thing that if the chat was open, we wouldn't be able to check completely any details of a person. Making users sign up to the server through GTF removes that. Having Discord as a chat for the smaller, closed community is more beneficial imo

Disagree, GTF is dying and we need to do something drastic to change this. Yes we have this amazing tight knit community but that's also been part of our downfall, it's very hard for members to really become established and feel part of or community, I think opening it up to a wider range of people would only be beneficial. The way to do this would be do use the amazing 'role' feature Discord has, and similar to what we've been doing with the House Cup only give access to a "general chat" and then upon creating an account and introducing themselves the person will then gain access to another/other chats.

I like Ethan's idea, you wouldn't have to make the chat private this way so new users can join through the chat.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby KrisCross » 21st August, 2017, 5:28 pm

I definitely don't see having Discord and the current official chat existing side by side as an end goal. If anything, GTF needs a clearer vision, having 2 different chats is not only a bit messy, but it'll also always leave one of both obsolete.

That being said, I do think it's a very good option as a transitional thing.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Jimjam » 21st August, 2017, 5:36 pm

*snip*

That is absolutely not what happened, when I saw we had a House Cup discord I posted it on the FB to get more people to join in the House Cup. After a small influx Bou and Russ that I recall, I made a separate text channel for them. From rereading the chatlogs

Confused as to why it was taken down after Russ and that joined and we set up a new chat to house the members who had joined during the confusion as nobody told me we weren't supposed to try and get more people to join. You then messaged me on FB to let me know as I was confused as to if it had been taken down or not.

When people wanted to move those not in the HC over to the alternative Discord server which I renamed something like GTF gaming or such such you came in and threatened to ban and when I asked for clarification you got increasingly irritable before it was explained what the issue was. But only you came in and did that Ethan and the others in chat were also confused before you actually clarified the issue - which was it had GTF in the server name which honestly would have been much easier and less aggravating for you to just message me or Kriss about. There used to be GTF skype groups and I'm sure there is probably a groupchat on Messenger not official ones of course just unofficial ones for friends and the like I didn't see the difference at the time.

It made sense at the time and when I asked for clarification (as there are/were GTF skype chats which people aren't banned for making) it was Dottys idea to make it a gamer chat which appeased everyone and seen as the best solution to go forward it's now pretty dead funnily enough but as I said multiple times I was happy to have those mods/chatmods/CA's/whatever have power over it same as HC discord. I know discord pretty well and set up a few bots for moderation/welcome messages. It's also very easy to set up a verification room and have them type in codes to access other rooms as I suggested. It's the best of both worlds still being open but users get verified before they're allowed into General or other chat rooms/Voicechat.

No toys were thrown out the buggy. No one was relentlessly advertising anything I made a post and linked some friends if you had told me I would have removed it and I haven't posted it again since. If you go look at the chat logs after we discuss it and your ban threat actually opened up the exact same conversation we're having now about the merit of discord or flashchat.


Also just for context here is my tantrum it may not seem like much but by British Standards this is like throwing out all the tea into the ocean and calling for a Republic. :lol:
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Jacketh » 21st August, 2017, 6:00 pm

Jimjam wrote:wall of text


I'm not going to reply extensively here as I could with all the screenshots I was sent, and its got nothing to do with the *actual* discussion with this thread, all I know is that I received three PMs from people telling me you were talking to them, asking them to join...one even said you were forcing them and they hate and do not use Discord :P

We removed you advertising it on the GTF Facebook group and spoke to you then - you then posted it again despite being asked not to. You renamed all the rooms in this Discord server to "Anything Goes, Pop Music Discussion Thread"; despite it apparently being a "gaymers chat" that was unofficial and nothing to do with GTF. I'm sure you can see why advertising a new Discord community you're setting up, that hasn't been discussed, and that is purposely mimicking the forum structure of GTF (and using the GTF name, at first) is an issue - it didn't really feel like an unofficial chat for some friends. You were advertising it to people on chat, both privately and publicly!

You also spoke to Jonathan and deceived him, making it seem like there was threat to ban you over the House Cup. No, the problem, as you just admitted, was due to your advertisement and the "alternative Discord server" you had set up and the fact we had asked you not to advertise this chat, despite both me and Kris asking you not to. It had nothing to do with Ethan's House Cup server that was in place or the House Cup itself, as you implied to Jonathan!

Anyway, as I said - if you want to discuss it further feel free to do so privately with me, as it has nothing to do with this thread. We are considering an official Discord chat and replacing our current chat, which you seem to be in favour of. Why you felt the need to bring this up and distract from the actual matter, I'm not quite sure - I would have thought you would have been happy we're discussing this, despite the fact you're quite aware I'm not a big fan of Discord. Thanks for your thoughts on the actual matter being discussed, though.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Jimjam » 21st August, 2017, 6:54 pm

Jacketh wrote:
Jimjam wrote:wall of text


*snip*


Yeah I did ask people to join privately because they were my friends and you told me not to advertise it on the actual forum/FB? Ofc it was mimicking I love this place and I thought it'd be handy to have all the same sort of rooms on GTF and stuff like PMDT. Which btw I think will be super handy for when we do make the transition to discord to have a similar layout.

Feel free to PM me about these deceptions though because I've been pretty upfront with everything. :)

George was made to join discord because he couldn't get on Roll20 which I run the forum Dungeons and Dragons game on and his technical issues were holding up limited game time which is pretty important when running a cross continent game at a time everyone can play. :gay:
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 21st August, 2017, 6:58 pm

"Deceived" is a strong word, as I don't think Jamie deliberately fed me false information. More accurately, he gave me a half story assuming I had a great enough knowledge of the context to know what he was on about. I clearly didn't. I made incorrect assumptions; he didn't give me a detailed enough account of what his problems were- lessons learned. Just thought I'd clarify that.


Again, I'm not particularly fussed about the whole discord thing.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby George » 22nd August, 2017, 10:37 am

I personally feel that we should not scrap chat to replace it with Discord, but I would welcome a GTF Discord.

Discord is a system with gaming in mind, designed to self-contain communities rather than support them as an addon. I appreciate one could make this argument about our existing chatroom but in its current state this is not particularly the case. Over the last 4 years of the implementation of this chat, and the 3 years (?) implementation of the chat before it, chat has been an important addon to GTF that has been a place for users to interact with one another live, about a limitless amount of subjects. With the removal of the 50-post requirement 2 years ago, it also became a place for people with next to no posts on the forum to still interact with it and become a part, and access and make friends without having to spam their way to do so. More recently, with the addition of the guest feature, we have picked up users who had no clue the forum existed or hadnt joined already, yet discovered our chatroom by searching online for a place to chat to gay teens about their concerns and questions.

I worry that by switching to Discord, we will compromise this. I can see the technological argument for discord; its shinier, more efficient, widely developed and is seeking to implement cams (a longstanding complaint as to why our own chat was superior). However, our chat isnt "bad". Yes, it has had its glitches, but we have a host of users on here who understand how to tackle coding issues like this. Furthermore, I worry that less technology/gaming inclined users (specifically new or prospect users) will be put off, as they will have to install another program to use an arguably fundamental aspect of this community which has been install-less for the last 7 years. I personally would not go as far as to install Discord myself if I did not already have it (admittedly mobile only, but that is a later point) and this also to me highlights a second problem:

We have had many users, particularly in the last year, who have been active in chat because they found it and liked the community there. The removal of the 50-post requirement allowed potential users to scope out chat to see if they liked it without having to fully commit to the forum or community to do so. Will potential users go to the effort of installing discord to do this? Will prospect users be able to google our discord and find it as easily as they have found our chat? If the answers are no (which is what I fear), it could have a significant impact on the growth of users in the coming months and years.

My next concern is actual implementation: many users (such as myself) will not have usernames on here which will match Discord usernames, or available Discord usernames. I appreciate that Discord usernames can be changed, but I will not be inclined to change it just for GTF when I will have to change it back to access other Discord communities I may frequent. As a result of this we will have a clash of not outright being able to connect (at least initially) users in Discord back to their profiles. It has been proposed that users could "verify" themselves with mods prior to this, but I argue that that would fall prone to the same pitfalls of the transitional period we had between the 50-post requirement and ditching it, whereby users who "showed potential" could be added early: many users PMing mods to make requests, and mods being snowed under by the sheer weight of admin work necessary to do so. Further concerns I have about implementation include significantly minor things revolving around issues such as access to logs for dealing with disputes, channels/channel creation, etc. I appreciate however that these are minor and could be batted aside, they still propose a degree of headache re. integration. Discord would appear to have a marginally higher minimum requirement than chat (I for example cannot actually operate Discord on the laptop I use for discord, and my desktop is supposedly incompatible with it, according to troubleshooting), and I wonder if this too will have an (admittedly small) impact.

Finally, my largest concern falls with the perceived change in tempo. I will admit that I am not personally fond of Discord: I have an account, I use it on mobile, but I rarely use it at that. But it is first and foremost a system designed for gaming communities that wont necessarily need to focus on a chat, and I feel that the reason we're debating swapping to it, re. the death of chat, is the main issue at the heart of this: If we can address why people aren't using chat, we have the solution. As someone who is in chat a lot, I can tell you now that we have a lot of users who come into chat and sit there idle/not attempting to make conversation, and we also have an even larger array of users who come in rarely despite being very active on the forum (or even just online). Perhaps it is myself that keeps chat perpetually dead, but we do need to address why people are avoiding it, rather than addressing replacing it with another system to potentially let die. I am not in the House Cup Discords, but when chat has been quiet I have questioned people who are about their activity and apparently they havent been that much more active either at the same times. With some users not even making the move to discord, or new users potentially backing out of it all together, I feel that ditching chat in its entirety would be more damaging that running the two concurrently, or just chat on its own.

Address the root of the problem, not the manifest.


As a very brief edit: I don't actually believe Discord is designed with the thought of using it as a chatroom in mind. Users don't "join" every time they want to discuss something, they're always there and will get notifications for everything they miss (which will amount to significant numbers if people do not check it frequently). I personally quite like the way our chat announces people joining, as it lets me know who is in our conversation at this very moment, not having to guess from a list of 100 names as to who is watching based on who has commented so far. It doesnt make me uncomfortable in the sense that I can't slag people off knowing they may be watching, but it does make me feel weird about the sheer nature of not knowing who in our list is lurking.

A second very brief edit: We discuss "striking inactive members off", but how will that incorporate users who take hiatuses? Users in university/college, or who just take extended breaks, risk being struck off and having to re-apply which may also put them off. On the flip side, how do we actually establish that someone has "left"? When they've been inactive for a month, year, etc? When was the last time you saw some users in chat? They're not automatically banned from it for being gone a long time, and so striking off inactive members will significantly penalise members who seek to return in future and may put them off doing so.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Jacketh » 22nd August, 2017, 3:35 pm

George wrote:I
I worry that by switching to Discord, we will compromise this. I can see the technological argument for discord; its shinier, more efficient, widely developed and is seeking to implement cams (a longstanding complaint as to why our own chat was superior). However, our chat isnt "bad". Yes, it has had its glitches, but we have a host of users on here who understand how to tackle coding issues like this. Furthermore, I worry that less technology/gaming inclined users (specifically new or prospect users) will be put off, as they will have to install another program to use an arguably fundamental aspect of this community which has been install-less for the last 7 years. I personally would not go as far as to install Discord myself if I did not already have it (admittedly mobile only, but that is a later point) and this also to me highlights a second problem[/quote

We have had many users, particularly in the last year, who have been active in chat because they found it and liked the community there. The removal of the 50-post requirement allowed potential users to scope out chat to see if they liked it without having to fully commit to the forum or community to do so. Will potential users go to the effort of installing discord to do this? Will prospect users be able to google our discord and find it as easily as they have found our chat? If the answers are no (which is what I fear), it could have a significant impact on the growth of users in the coming months and years.

My next concern is actual implementation: many users (such as myself) will not have usernames on here which will match Discord usernames, or available Discord usernames. I appreciate that Discord usernames can be changed, but I will not be inclined to change it just for GTF when I will have to change it back to access other Discord communities I may frequent. As a result of this we will have a clash of not outright being able to connect (at least initially) users in Discord back to their profiles. It has been proposed that users could "verify" themselves with mods prior to this, but I argue that that would fall prone to the same pitfalls of the transitional period we had between the 50-post requirement and ditching it, whereby users who "showed potential" could be added early: many users PMing mods to make requests, and mods being snowed under by the sheer weight of admin work necessary to do so. Further concerns I have about implementation include significantly minor things revolving around issues such as access to logs for dealing with disputes, channels/channel creation, etc. I appreciate however that these are minor and could be batted aside, they still propose a degree of headache re. integration. Discord would appear to have a marginally higher minimum requirement than chat (I for example cannot actually operate Discord on the laptop I use for discord, and my desktop is supposedly incompatible with it, according to troubleshooting), and I wonder if this too will have an (admittedly small) impact.

Finally, my largest concern falls with the perceived change in tempo. I will admit that I am not personally fond of Discord: I have an account, I use it on mobile, but I rarely use it at that. But it is first and foremost a system designed for gaming communities that wont necessarily need to focus on a chat, and I feel that the reason we're debating swapping to it, re. the death of chat, is the main issue at the heart of this: If we can address why people aren't using chat, we have the solution. As someone who is in chat a lot, I can tell you now that we have a lot of users who come into chat and sit there idle/not attempting to make conversation, and we also have an even larger array of users who come in rarely despite being very active on the forum (or even just online). Perhaps it is myself that keeps chat perpetually dead, but we do need to address why people are avoiding it, rather than addressing replacing it with another system to potentially let die. I am not in the House Cup Discords, but when chat has been quiet I have questioned people who are about their activity and apparently they havent been that much more active either at the same times. With some users not even making the move to discord, or new users potentially backing out of it all together, I feel that ditching chat in its entirety would be more damaging that running the two concurrently, or just chat on its own.

Address the root of the problem, not the manifest.


As a very brief edit: I don't actually believe Discord is designed with the thought of using it as a chatroom in mind. Users don't "join" every time they want to discuss something, they're always there and will get notifications for everything they miss (which will amount to significant numbers if people do not check it frequently). I personally quite like the way our chat announces people joining, as it lets me know who is in our conversation at this very moment, not having to guess from a list of 100 names as to who is watching based on who has commented so far. It doesnt make me uncomfortable in the sense that I can't slag people off knowing they may be watching, but it does make me feel weird about the sheer nature of not knowing who in our list is lurking.

A second very brief edit: We discuss "striking inactive members off", but how will that incorporate users who take hiatuses? Users in university/college, or who just take extended breaks, risk being struck off and having to re-apply which may also put them off. On the flip side, how do we actually establish that someone has "left"? When they've been inactive for a month, year, etc? When was the last time you saw some users in chat? They're not automatically banned from it for being gone a long time, and so striking off inactive members will significantly penalise members who seek to return in future and may put them off doing so.


A lot of good points well made, George! Right now we won't be replacing the current 123Flashchat.

Although...

George wrote:However, our chat isnt "bad". Yes, it has had its glitches, but we have a host of users on here who understand how to tackle coding issues like this. Furthermore, I worry that less technology/gaming inclined users (specifically new or prospect users) will be put off, as they will have to install another program to use an arguably fundamental aspect of this community which has been install-less for the last 7 years. I personally would not go as far as to install Discord myself if I did not already have it (admittedly mobile only, but that is a later point) and this also to me highlights a second problem


It is actually awful :P Nearly all Chrome users are currently unable to cam. There are underlying security issues with it, which I've taken steps to prevent but should not exist in the first place. It is horrific on the mobile and nearly unusable, which, in my opinion, is the biggest argument for a Discord. I take what you say about GTF being a "slower pace" conversation, and perhaps this will keep people engaged as they head off to university or college over the next couple of months.

We have come up with something that will merge this idea with another idea we've had for a while, and I'm fairly confident that will work and keep everyone happy :) But I think it is clear from this thread that it wouldn't be wise to replace 123Flashchat at this moment in time.
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby George » 22nd August, 2017, 3:58 pm

If I might, and it may not be my place to say so, but I discussed this briefly at the meetup yesterday (we had attendance from many users who arent very active on the forums so werent aware of the discussion). Amongst them, Calum discussed how it might be an idea to gather our tech-savy members (we could think of perhaps 4-5?) and see if they could code something between them. Its an ambitious project but I think if we put some thought to it we could see interesting results. Of course, not to make it our holdout, but certainly the experimental project for some bored uni computer students :P

I look forward to seeing your hybrid idea, but I must that I personally will not be transferring over to Discord if that is indeed the decision we take in the end. I am very fond of flashchat, and if a better version is presented I'm happy to, but I am personally not terribly fond on having to make more accounts/install more things etc to access chat and I know of others who feel the same. I also note how you say it would not be wise to replace flashchat "at this time" :P Hopefully, not for some time :)

EDIT: Would it be worth running some sort of forum-wide, survey regarding chat usage? Ask users to identify how often they use chat, why they use it, why they dont?

That way, we can weed out whether there are specific reasons for people avoiding chat, or if there is simply a general apathy? From there, we can tackle the issue perhaps by treating the issues, talking to the appropriate people, etc?

EDIT 2: Probably best to make it anonymous, hence people don't feel concerned naming certain users or aspects that they associate negatively with chat?
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Isaac » 22nd August, 2017, 4:14 pm

YEAHH BOI DISCORD FTW
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Isaac » 22nd August, 2017, 4:19 pm

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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Ethán » 23rd August, 2017, 7:59 am

George wrote:I worry that less technology/gaming inclined users (specifically new or prospect users) will be put off, as they will have to install another program to use an arguably fundamental aspect of this community which has been install-less for the last 7 years. I personally would not go as far as to install Discord myself if I did not already have it (admittedly mobile only, but that is a later point) and this also to me highlights a second problem:

We have had many users, particularly in the last year, who have been active in chat because they found it and liked the community there. The removal of the 50-post requirement allowed potential users to scope out chat to see if they liked it without having to fully commit to the forum or community to do so. Will potential users go to the effort of installing discord to do this? Will prospect users be able to google our discord and find it as easily as they have found our chat? If the answers are no (which is what I fear), it could have a significant impact on the growth of users in the coming months and years.

In my opinion what I've noticed is that actually more and more of the younger generation are very familiar with Discord and have either already used it or are very willing to get it and once they do get it have no issues learning the ropes quickly. Discord actually works in browser! meaning a person does not in fact have to download a separate app, it can be similar to GTF chat in the sense that you click the link and it opens in a new tab. as seen here:
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George wrote:My next concern is actual implementation: many users (such as myself) will not have usernames on here which will match Discord usernames, or available Discord usernames. I appreciate that Discord usernames can be changed, but I will not be inclined to change it just for GTF when I will have to change it back to access other Discord communities I may frequent. As a result of this we will have a clash of not outright being able to connect (at least initially) users in Discord back to their profiles. It has been proposed that users could "verify" themselves with mods prior to this, but I argue that that would fall prone to the same pitfalls of the transitional period we had between the 50-post requirement and ditching it, whereby users who "showed potential" could be added early: many users PMing mods to make requests, and mods being snowed under by the sheer weight of admin work necessary to do so. Further concerns I have about implementation include significantly minor things revolving around issues such as access to logs for dealing with disputes, channels/channel creation, etc.

This issue has been brought up a couple of times and it is a valid concern, however, it is one I think that can be easily dealt with. You're right many people will have a discord username that is different to their GTF username including myself! You can actually change your nickname for each server that you're on (I imagine only through a mod in the case of a GTF Discord) so that you can match your GTF username.
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Yes it may take a little bit of effort from mods to verify people and assign roles etc but I imagine that will only be in the first week or so, whilst there is a large influx of users. After that It will be a significantly lower number of people joining each day that would be much easier to handle. In regards to guests and people who aren't GTF users yet I've already suggested a method of dealing with them, there can be a general chat lobby (much like GTF chat) where anyone can join and chat, and access to other more intimate chats will only be granted once the person has made an account on the forum and introduced themselves. With Discord bots the members could even be privately messaged as soon as they join the server with information regarding our community/forum and chat rules etc.

George wrote:As a very brief edit: I don't actually believe Discord is designed with the thought of using it as a chatroom in mind. Users don't "join" every time they want to discuss something, they're always there and will get notifications for everything they miss (which will amount to significant numbers if people do not check it frequently). I personally quite like the way our chat announces people joining, as it lets me know who is in our conversation at this very moment, not having to guess from a list of 100 names as to who is watching based on who has commented so far. It doesnt make me uncomfortable in the sense that I can't slag people off knowing they may be watching, but it does make me feel weird about the sheer nature of not knowing who in our list is lurking.

Users actually wont receive notifications for every single message sent on the server, Discord has a lovely setting where you can set it so members of the server only receive notifications if they are specifically mentions e.g @Ethan
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As for the point of not knowing who is watching, isn't this the case with GTF chat already? Chat is shown on the front page! In the case of Discord it will be people you already know for the most part, rather than an infinite number of randoms browsing the site xD And in my experience with the House Cup Discord, no one actually has time nor cares to sit there watching a conversation ;)
George wrote:A second very brief edit: We discuss "striking inactive members off", but how will that incorporate users who take hiatuses? Users in university/college, or who just take extended breaks, risk being struck off and having to re-apply which may also put them off. On the flip side, how do we actually establish that someone has "left"? When they've been inactive for a month, year, etc? When was the last time you saw some users in chat? They're not automatically banned from it for being gone a long time, and so striking off inactive members will significantly penalise members who seek to return in future and may put them off doing so.

I don't see this actually being a thing where members are removed from the Discord after periods of inactivity, we have plenty of people who use our site and chat sporadically and I don't think there's any way they'd be removed for doing so. But If its the case of a member joining for a few days then disappearing, perhaps then it could be considered but even then I don't see a point in removing them, what if they do randomly decide to come back?
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Kaspar » 23rd August, 2017, 10:16 am

^ I fully agree with these points Ethan made
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Re: Public Consultation on introducing an official GTF Discord chat/se

Unread postby Tim. » 23rd August, 2017, 10:51 am

Amongst them, Calum discussed how it might be an idea to gather our tech-savy members (we could think of perhaps 4-5?) and see if they could code something between them.

I love the thought of this idea, however I imagine something like this would take a long time to come to fruition if it's at all possible. In the meantime we need to think what is the best option for right now.
George, you make good points - a lot of which I agree with, but I do think we need to move on from the flash chat sooner rather than later.

The fact I'm stuck on a mobile for the next two months has made Chat inaccessible for me, I don't know if it's because I've got an old link or what but it just won't load. The fact that it continually throws up incompatibility problems with Chrome is another reason to expidite change.

Been involved with the process of setting up the house cup discord showed me how flexible of a platform it can actually be. I expect as a rule we will have the usernames the same as the forums if what Ethan says about setting them up unique to that server is accurate. Yeah it requires mod time, but from what I've seen this has already been considered by the staff and plans put in place.

The biggest downsides to discord are some of what George listed, it's a continuous long discussion rather than the fast paced, more intimate discussion in the flash chat. The fact you don't know who's "in the room" at that moment is another negative, but I'm sure we can adapt to it.
Lack of cams sticks out to me as the biggest loss of moving over to discord, but as it is a developing and supported platform that could very well change in the near future.
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