Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

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Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Jonohhh » 19th February, 2018, 3:38 pm

So, for quite a while, we in the United States have had issues with people grabbing a gun, and going out to shoot people up.

We know this, but what we don't know is the"correct" solution.

1. Total Ban on Firearms

Likely the worst solution, for a few reasons. To name a few:

The amendment, our proximity to Mexico, and (as a country) our beliefs.

It worked in Australia, but a large part of that is because they're essentially alone in the middle of nowhere, and don't have close access to guns in the first place. A total ban would likely end up like the war on drugs, and we see how well that's going.


2. Limits on Ammunition

It's more reasonable than a total ban, but how effective (and again, how logistical) it'd be is unknown. It only takes 1 bullet to kill one person, and the typical rifle clip holds many more.

3. Background Checks

By far the most logistical, but in the recent wake of young adults shooting things, it may not be as effective as we'd like. Many students have access to guns for hunting, and that's where the AR15 is used (at least locally). A background check wouldn't necessarily prevent a student with a good track record who only uses the gun for hunting from getting ahold of one.

Ideally, this would prevent young adults with a bad history from getting ahold of guns, but if the parents ( where most kids get guns) had a great history and therefore had access, it wouldn't do much.

Just curious as to what we all think about this topic? Any ideas? I'm not pushing one way or another, I'm open minded. A change is needed, and it needs to happen soon. It's absolutely rediculous that we have gotten to this point, and it needs to stop.

Jon
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Flower » 19th February, 2018, 4:22 pm

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I live in a country with terrorism. And the Usa funds them. You can't prevent people from having guns. We have real strict background checks, limitations etc because of terrorism.

You know what? It prevents nothing.
They smuggle it or buy it from underground. Even with all the checks, the crazy people always get weapons. For example "a sane man" gets a weapon, then goes berserk and kills his wife. Its so common here. So, the checks and the controls are just lies of the liberal media. What they really try to do is to contain the people to be only get triggered by events, not take any action. That was how Us defeated the British. And they don't another one. They want a passive and gunless society.

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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Lochlan » 19th February, 2018, 4:33 pm

Start by banning assault rifles. Hit me up when a school shooter kills 17 people with a pistol or a shotgun, and then I'll say an absolute ban on guns, but the very very first step should be to totally ban automatic weaponry, it's not necessary.

A system similar to the one we have employed in the UK would be ideal, since we haven't had any school shootings since like, the 1990s? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not fact checking.

Background checks too need to be deployed, I know gun fairs exist which kind of bypass that, but imo you should not be allowed to own or carry a firearm if you have any criminal record. Just no, it's fucking dumb.

Make it harder for psychos and terrorists to kill en masse and you'll decrease how many people who die. That's a solid step 1 yet it seems to be something the US government hasn't figured out how to do yet. Go figure.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Dolly » 19th February, 2018, 9:41 pm

Lochlan wrote:Start by banning assault rifles. Hit me up when a school shooter kills 17 people with a pistol or a shotgun, and then I'll say an absolute ban on guns, but the very very first step should be to totally ban automatic weaponry, it's not necessary.


Assault rifles are already largely banned. To own one, you need at least $20,000 and a very, very thorough background check. An AR-15, the weapon the shooter used, is not an assault rifle.

Lochlan wrote:A system similar to the one we have employed in the UK would be ideal, since we haven't had any school shootings since like, the 1990s? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not fact checking.


It would be impossible to do this because we have more than 300mill guns and the Second Amendment.

Lochlan wrote:Background checks too need to be deployed, I know gun fairs exist which kind of bypass that, but imo you should not be allowed to own or carry a firearm if you have any criminal record. Just no, it's fucking dumb.


We already have a background check system. Plus, the "gun loophole" term is a myth. Licensed gun sellers are required to run a background check.

Lochlan wrote:Make it harder for psychos and terrorists to kill en masse and you'll decrease how many people who die. That's a solid step 1 yet it seems to be something the US government hasn't figured out how to do yet. Go figure.


How do you determine if someone's a psycho or terrorist?
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby CRUSTY SEA MILF » 19th February, 2018, 11:37 pm

I think that gun violence as a whole isn't something you can just tackle from one side.
I'd that most of these shooters are being enabled to commit these acts by two main problems, a lack of better gun laws and a mental health system that isn't reaching everyone that it needs to.
First of all, I would argue that no one aside from the military need an automatic, semi-automatic, or assault weapon. (The AR in AR-15 does not stand for automatic/assault rifle, it stands for ArmaLite). That being said, as someone who has relatives that hunt for partial sustenance and my own family using guns for wildlife management (Coyotes primarily in my area... but especially Bears, Moose, and Wolves up at my cabin in N. Minnesota when we or our animals are threatened). For this reason, I think that owning a pistol, rifle, or shotgun are reasonable guns that can be allowed. None of these are easy to use if you have multiple targets in a small area, and honestly wouldn't be effective for a school shooter to employ - so keeping these legal is something that might help.
Secondly, our mental health system here, especially in poor areas, honestly sucks ass. I am in no way blaming the schools victimized by school shooters that return to their alma mater - but there is absolutely a connection. Think about it - you spend your last 4 years before becoming an adult at a high school. You make good memories, laugh, cry, experience, heartbreak, even bullying. From freshman year to senior, you mature a lot emotionally, because it's a time where you "come of age" and have your first real world experiences oftentimes. I think that schools need to try and focus on improving their support system to eliminate bullying and make mental health counseling and social workers more accessible and not the 'sign of weakness' that they are often associated with. There is a reason why these kids go back to the high school, and its often because mentally you either mature - or don't, in this period of time. They don't go to the mall (where there are probably more people in open areas), they don't go to the skatepark, or McDonald's, because they made friendships that flourished, or failed, had teachers who listened, or ignored, and struggled. When you look at it like this, there's no doubt why they would go back to their school.
Another point is that I think it's really difficult to really understand what this is like in America if you're not an American. While I'm not discrediting anyone's opinions, you haven't really known what it's like to be in America - both in heavy gun areas and heavily controlled areas - until you have LIVED here and have experienced it frequently. Honestly, from my standpoint, knowing someone has a conceal and carry is not particularly threatening to me, but I understand how others would feel the opposite - I just grew up with it. I feel more secure being in a rough area if someone with me has a conceal and carry, not so that they can use it to shoot someone, but so that they can let a potential threat know we aren't to be messed with (with a warning shot, or just the sight of the gun). For the person that wrote the GTFess that was specifically targeted at me - I think your wording indicates you are largely ignorant on the topic. The suburbs aren't full of nuts (I assume you're talking about my family, eh?), and if they were, there would be far more gun problems than there are. Plenty of people own guns around here, generally for the sake of hunting and the like, and for a lesser degree, protecting themselves against threats.
Finally, again, not blaming anyone aside from the shooter here, but people need to start putting their pride on the shelf and speaking out if someone is behaving oddly. The pack mentality means you don't want to be the tattletale when it comes to your friends, and I get it, but would you rather be a tattletale or potentially prevent someone from killing several people? "If you see something, say something" is a great slogan for this imo. In many of these cases, after the fact, we see interviews with friends, family, employers, etc. that point out "Oh yeah we did think he was behaving oddly" or "He was really fascinated with death" or other behaviors that a 'normal' person (I use this loosely, as normal is hard to define, but an obsession with killing is hardly normal) wouldn't be exhibiting. Not blaming the family/friends, but I think that it shows you care more about someone if you get them the help they clearly need.
In short: Better Support Systems + More Appropriate Gun Laws + Non-Partisan views + Community/Individual Efforts = A solution to this horrible problem imo
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby CRUSTY SEA MILF » 20th February, 2018, 12:08 am

Flower wrote:We have real strict background checks, limitations etc because of terrorism.

You know what? It prevents nothing.
They smuggle it or buy it from underground. Even with all the checks, the crazy people always get weapons.... So, the checks and the controls are just lies of the liberal media. What they really try to do is to contain the people to be only get triggered by events, not take any action.

-snip-

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You can't prevent rape by banning sex or limiting it. You can only prevent it by giving a proper education. This is like this.


I think that your intentions are good, however, I don't think that throwing our arms in the air and giving up on checks and gun control is a good solution (if you believe it isn't effective). I think that generally speaking, it does work. I also agree with you that people will buy their guns illegally, however, I would like to point out that most of the people who are fervent supporters of the second amendment probably aren't interested in going on the black market to get more.
I think that education is important, but is difficult to mandate to everyone. Current permits to carry a weapon do require training. I think the bigger issue here is that the shooters are violent, often have degree of trauma, and are suffering from mental illness. So I believe that giving up on restrictions is the WORST thing we can do. Instead, keep strong laws that don't reasonably infringe on people's rights as an American citizen, and improve the social and mental health services in the public and schools.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Togetik » 20th February, 2018, 6:46 am

Both stricter gun control put in place at a federal level, and better enforcement of said gun control, is pretty much universally the best and only option to fixing America's horrific gun violence problem.

Better mental health services would be great, but it's not actually as much of a factor in mass shootings as you'd imagine (Mostly because the mentally ill are overwhelmingly more likely to be the victim of a crime than the perpetrator). If we're really committed to tackling the peripheral issues rather than the main thing of guns being the problem, then maybe trying to tackle white supremacists would be a good place to start, given that the latest perpetrator (Maybe? There might've been another one since the major one everyone is talking about, they happen on smaller scales all the time in the US) was one, and that right wing domestic terrorists are overwhelmingly the main culprits of terrorist attacks in the US.

I don't really get the kind of false pessimism that leads to that "well there's too many guns already" argument as if upholding the status quo is better than any alternatives, or the only possible course of action. You shouldn't have a gun unless you have a reason to own one, and you should have background checks + mandatory training on how to use it safely before you can have it.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby joshe » 20th February, 2018, 6:54 pm

The 2nd Amendment is outdated and dangerous.
There is no reason for anyone to walk into a store, and buy a killing machine with no/little background check.
To buy any gun, an extremely comprehensive and thorough background check is needed.
A gun licence must be obtained, this has to be renewed regularly, let's say every 3 years, to renew the licence another comprehensive and thorough background check is needed. If this is not passed. they can say goodbye to the guns.
By law, all guns need to be kept locked away, secure and protected.
The best thing to do would be an outright ban on guns
Change is needed, but unfortunately, change will not happen with that narcissistic buffoon running that country.
Also, arming teachers to stop school shootings is beyond stupidity, it's pure absurdity.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Lochlan » 20th February, 2018, 7:10 pm

joshe wrote:Change is needed, but unfortunately, change will not happen with that narcissistic buffoon running that country.

I agree that change is needed, but I don't think this is a Trump issue. Sure, he's an old codger who doesn't really seem to know quite what he's doing most of the time, but anybody trying to stay president would think multiple times before trying to pass a bill that opposes the second amendment, it's like political suicide.

I'm not sure strict gun laws would ever be passed in the US unless an absolute massacre occured, which couldn't be ignored. It's a sad fact but there's been enough school shootings to prove that they aren't going to change laws based on these.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Lochlan » 20th February, 2018, 7:15 pm

Dolly wrote:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Lochlan wrote:Start by banning assault rifles. Hit me up when a school shooter kills 17 people with a pistol or a shotgun, and then I'll say an absolute ban on guns, but the very very first step should be to totally ban automatic weaponry, it's not necessary.


Assault rifles are already largely banned. To own one, you need at least $20,000 and a very, very thorough background check. An AR-15, the weapon the shooter used, is not an assault rifle.

Lochlan wrote:A system similar to the one we have employed in the UK would be ideal, since we haven't had any school shootings since like, the 1990s? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not fact checking.


It would be impossible to do this because we have more than 300mill guns and the Second Amendment.

Lochlan wrote:Background checks too need to be deployed, I know gun fairs exist which kind of bypass that, but imo you should not be allowed to own or carry a firearm if you have any criminal record. Just no, it's fucking dumb.


We already have a background check system. Plus, the "gun loophole" term is a myth. Licensed gun sellers are required to run a background check.


Lochlan wrote:Make it harder for psychos and terrorists to kill en masse and you'll decrease how many people who die. That's a solid step 1 yet it seems to be something the US government hasn't figured out how to do yet. Go figure.


How do you determine if someone's a psycho or terrorist?


Thank u for schooling me Dolly :heart:

With regards to that last point tho, it was less about discovering who is a terrorist etc, and more about limiting the means with which to cause mass murder. The idea is impossible to implement, but in a theoretical world where people couldn't ever obtain that level of weaponry, the killings wouldn't happen, or at least wouldn't happen as frequently, as it would be harder for anybody to get their hands on the weapons.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Dolly » 20th February, 2018, 9:57 pm

jesus fuck it's annoying seeing people who have literally no idea how gun laws work in America or even classifications of guns try to comment on this issue. wow!!!

@Wolbre
You said semi-automatic weapons should be illegal before saying pistols and rifles should be legal. Most pistols and rifles are semi-automatic.

Semi-automatic:
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Single-fire:
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@Toge
Not too much can be done at the federal level; it's largely a state thing
Training is already required in about half of states, but I agree the rest should follow suit.
Sport and self-defense are already good enough reasons.

@joshe
The 2nd Amendment has a purpose: to guarantee citizens' abilities to fight back against an oppressive government.
People are already, usually, required to pass a background check.
Gun licenses are already, usually, required.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Togetik » 20th February, 2018, 10:41 pm

Dolly wrote:@Wolbre
You said semi-automatic weapons should be illegal before saying pistols and rifles should be legal. Most pistols and rifles are semi-automatic.


I don't see the issue in that, lol

Dolly wrote:@Toge
Not too much can be done at the federal level; it's largely a state thing
Training is already required in about half of states, but I agree the rest should follow suit.
Sport and self-defense are already good enough reasons.


It absolutely can be done at a federal level, it just won't because the NRA is in the pockets of the republican party and that pretty much controls all their principals. Ideally there'd be federal level laws that put every state on the same level, since leaving it to individual states ruins their effectiveness, as a state with high levels of gun control bordered by ones with low levels of gun control has it's effects severely hampered. It's required in half states but that requirement is kind of vastly different from state to state, with some requiring live fire tests (you have to shoot a target in the right place the right amount of times to pass) and some simply being training without live fire.

I think sport and self-defence are fair enough reasons (Although self defence is kind of a myth, since having a gun in your home makes you less safe, and most situations where you're drawing a gun for self defence is going to make it worse rather than better) but that's not at all a free pass to own any gun, you should be severely restricted based on the reason. If you want to own a gun for sport, you should have to own a sporting gun and if you want one for self defence you should be able to get a weapon from a restricted list of types.

Dolly wrote:@joshe
The 2nd Amendment has a purpose: to guarantee citizens' abilities to fight back against an oppressive government


A useless, outdated purpose that has no place in the modern era though? There's no situation where a bunch of fuckos with guns are going to fight back against the federal government, and in it's current form it just encourages domestic terrorists like Ammon Bundy, things like the oklahoma bombing and waco ect

Dolly wrote:People are already, usually, required to pass a background check.


Only if they're buying from dealers, which is only a little more than half of all sales. Beyond that background checks are weakened to the point of uselessness by NRA lobbying and state level sabotage because they're lacking the records they need from states and a lot of the time are legislatively forced to use paper rather than digital recordkeeping
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby CRUSTY SEA MILF » 20th February, 2018, 11:11 pm

Dolly wrote:jesus fuck it's annoying seeing people who have literally no idea how gun laws work in America or even classifications of guns try to comment on this issue. wow!!!

@Wolbre
You said semi-automatic weapons should be illegal before saying pistols and rifles should be legal. Most pistols and rifles are semi-automatic.

Semi-automatic:
Image
Single-fire:
Image

@Toge
Not too much can be done at the federal level; it's largely a state thing
Training is already required in about half of states, but I agree the rest should follow suit.
Sport and self-defense are already good enough reasons.

@joshe
The 2nd Amendment has a purpose: to guarantee citizens' abilities to fight back against an oppressive government.
People are already, usually, required to pass a background check.
Gun licenses are already, usually, required.

I should've clarified, I was referring to rifles that can easily be modified with a bump-stock, that should be banned
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Jonohhh » 22nd February, 2018, 8:01 pm

Hey gays, it's awesome to hear your feedback, and there have also been some pretty good points made.

I'm glad to see people stepping up to give detailed explanations, because something has to change, and the more knowledge the better.

Is anyone participating in the Nationwide school walkouts, the first of which being March 14?
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby CRUSTY SEA MILF » 22nd February, 2018, 8:46 pm

Jonohhh wrote:Hey gays, it's awesome to hear your feedback, and there have also been some pretty good points made.

I'm glad to see people stepping up to give detailed explanations, because something has to change, and the more knowledge the better.

Is anyone participating in the Nationwide school walkouts, the first of which being March 14?

The walkout is during my spring break so...
I might just walk out of my room for the first time in days, and then slink back in
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Jonohhh » 22nd February, 2018, 10:40 pm

wolbre04 wrote:
Jonohhh wrote:Hey gays, it's awesome to hear your feedback, and there have also been some pretty good points made.

I'm glad to see people stepping up to give detailed explanations, because something has to change, and the more knowledge the better.

Is anyone participating in the Nationwide school walkouts, the first of which being March 14?

The walkout is during my spring break so...
I might just walk out of my room for the first time in days, and then slink back in


School and Gun saftey was on our city boards agenda tonight, and I think they might actually make some improvements, so instead I might get a group together to thank the city and board for taking action. Still something to show our appreciation! I didn't even think of spring break interfering- I should check tbh.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Adyuto » 23rd February, 2018, 1:35 pm

I agree with the father of one of the victims said, to paraphrase: "My daughter had more rights than the Second Amendment". Having grown up in country where gang-affiliated gun crime is common and in the southern United States, it is my opinion that an outright gun ban will not work. The United States is located such that it is difficult to monitor what the trade of illegal goods - of which guns are included. Thus, I believe citizens should be able to own weapons for self-defense purposes. However, I believe that an automatic and semi-automatic weapons ban is reasonable. This is because most criminals do not use these weapons in most situations, and even most police officers don't use these weapons- indicating that they aren't necessary for self-defense. However, if it is politically impossible for automatic and semi-automatic weapons ban to be enacted, I think that bullets used in these weapons should be heavily taxed. Citizens would be able to own these weapons for "self-defense" or hobbies, and criminals will be financially deterred from committing mass shootings. I also think we need to look at our law enforcement agencies' effectiveness. It's completely unacceptable that they either mistakingly, or didn't have the resources, to pursue subjects identified as risks to the community.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby joshe » 26th February, 2018, 1:51 pm

[youtube]watch?v=bX4qUsgHa4Y[/youtube]
An amazing video to show the impact of gun use in the USA.
mods pls format this i tried, i failed
Last edited by joshe on 26th February, 2018, 1:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: formatting
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby btxtt » 14th March, 2018, 6:07 pm

Me and the boys had a heated debate about US gun violence last night at the barracks and I'd like to share some views on it.

1. Ban civilians from getting assault rifles, both full automatic and semi-automatic. In the wrong hands both deal great damage. Get a normal hunting rifle.

2. Background checks, psychological evaluation; I'm in the military. Before anyone even considered it vaguely possible for me to get access to a firearm, I had to undergo psychological tests and had to actually take part in a course about gun safety. The military also checked my background for possible earlier offenses. I now have an RK-62 M (7.62 x 3.9mm) as my service weapon. An AK-variant of sorts. The purpose being national defence in an armed conflict. Not hunting, not self defece, but a Delta-class national emergency. On the meanwhile, you can easily buy some AK variant easily in the US in civil often with bare background check that only covers checking criminal records etc.

3. Obligatory courses for weapon safety combined with the other possibilities stated above.

4. Higher age limits to buying guns. Might make it harder for 19 year olds to walk to school and slaughter people.

5. The 2nd amendment was written in late 1700's. Obviously banning guns is difficult at this point so yeah, training and arming teachers and other staff in different organizations might not be a bad idea, as sad as it sounds.
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Re: Public Shootings: What needs to be done?

Unread postby Woollyhoolly » 28th May, 2018, 8:25 pm

Realistically speaking, the US is not gonna ban firearms. It would be the best solution, but its not gonna happen.

Imo the sale of ammo should be drasticly limited. For instance the las vegas shooting couldve been prevented with that, and if it might not have been prevented, the amount of victims would have at least been severely limited.

Furthermore, a high tax should be levied on all gun and ammo sales, and these funds should be used to pay for hospital costs of shooting victims, and for security personnel.

Moreover, schools need adequate guards. Many schools where school shootings have taken place have had a security guard, but that person was too afraid to ask. Since america loves its military, 2-10 army personnel per school doesn't sound out of place, taking into account the size of the school.

And as mentioned above, a higher purchasing age and obligatory courses for weapon safety would be great, but i doubt thats actually going to happen
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