POC culture crossing over with gay culture

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POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Example » 23rd July, 2017, 2:48 am

okay so my friend said white gay men appropriate black women and it got me thinking

basically I always thought that black culture and gay culture sort of rubbed off on each other back in the secret ballroom days.
That when gay white men mirror black gay historians that theyre just mirroring someone they see as lgbt
so I'm just wondering with the cross over of gay culture and black culture when is it too far
I don't mean like the way we do our hair or anything like that I think I mean more behavior
I think this person said what I feel better

''I’d trace its lineage to the movie Paris Is Burning. The 1990 drag-ball documentary assayed the lives of poor, largely black gay men who built an alternative culture — one with a language that would seem to borrow heavily from what Mannie calls “Shanequa from around the way.” And the white gay men I’ve met who most frequently speak, or tweet, in a faux-urban patois aren’t trying mimic Tyler Perry’s Madea character or any real-life black woman. They’re mimicking gay men from another era, who found a way to forge an identity amid difficult circumstances. The “realness” those performers prized allowed them to express themselves, through the guise of characters who owed a lot to the women who were their mothers, sisters, and friends.''

i feel like its different though then like when a straight white man steals a black persons culture

sexuality makes it so confusing because i feel like its part of our history but also isn't

cause when you look at these black gay men and drag queens i think i mostly just see a fellow historic gay person and mirror it

but lots of gays do look at black women today and mirror them i think too

i almost wanna say maybe appropriation in this case is more based off of your education and respect levels if that makes sense

i feel like sexuality culture is crossing over with poc culture and making it confusing

like when does gay culture become poc culture?

what is gay culture without black culture how can i even have any at all if im white?



I'd like to hear what you guys think of this whole thing
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Togetik » 23rd July, 2017, 3:14 am

I guess my question is how this is an issue more than anything, the concept of cultural appropriation is kind of an inherintly neutral one shaped only by context, and I don't see anything negative or derogative coming out of the speech patterns or behaviours.

I think you've got a couple of different things you're asking that all mix together and make it hard to dissect and answer, are you asking if it's appropriate to associate historic LGBT POC communities/people with the modern culture, or at least if emulation of them is ok? Because i'd say not doing that is kind of erasure of their contributions to the community and movement at large
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Example » 23rd July, 2017, 3:22 am

i think yea im asking if were appropriating poc or if our emulation is is through a shared lgbt culture and history
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Togetik » 23rd July, 2017, 3:42 am

It's kind of a combination of both, i guess, there's historical roots but emulation is also a thing in the modern era. I don't really see the appropriation as a bad thing, though, as long as it doesn't detract from the original culture
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 23rd July, 2017, 7:24 am

This appropriation is acceptable and is even quite a good thing, so long as these aren't the same white gays saying "no blacks" on Grindr, they don't deserve our culture.
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Dessy » 23rd July, 2017, 10:09 am

I think there's also a lot of overlap between who started what, especially when you consider that black queers were/are responsible for some of things black women would say or do. So it's kinda a weird loop. I don't think it's a problem unless you're one of those type that dismiss black folks. And I'm not talking about just preferences, but our issues, cultural figures, and so on.
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 23rd July, 2017, 6:10 pm

Dessy wrote:I think there's also a lot of overlap between who started what, especially when you consider that black queers were/are responsible for some of things black women would say or do. So it's kinda a weird loop. I don't think it's a problem unless you're one of those type that dismiss black folks. And I'm not talking about just preferences, but our issues, cultural figures, and so on.


Yeah- I was going to say this.

If you want to see how gays have been influenced by specifically Latino/black gay culture, rather than exclusively appropriating generic black culture, then I'd recommend watching Paris is Burning.
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 23rd July, 2017, 6:26 pm

JonathanT88 wrote:
Dessy wrote:I think there's also a lot of overlap between who started what, especially when you consider that black queers were/are responsible for some of things black women would say or do. So it's kinda a weird loop. I don't think it's a problem unless you're one of those type that dismiss black folks. And I'm not talking about just preferences, but our issues, cultural figures, and so on.


Yeah- I was going to say this.

If you want to see how gays have been influenced by specifically Latino/black gay culture, rather than exclusively appropriating generic black culture, then I'd recommend watching Paris is Burning.

That's exactly what Kyler was recommending to his rather ignorant "friend"
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Pity » 23rd July, 2017, 7:02 pm

I have thought about this before, but I never did any in-depth research into this. It is an interesting phenomenon, to say the least. In general, I think I agree that is appropriation, but there a lot of nuances that I will try to explain as I share my personal thoughts along the way.

1. What does "people of color mean?"
The only examples of appropriation I have seen are derived almost exclusively from African-American women. Since "people of color" essentially means anyone who is not Caucasian, I think we should stick to using African-American or black instead of using this team. What has the LGBT community appropriated from the Natives, Asians, Hispanics, or Arabs?

2. Why is "white" being used?
The article you referenced in your posts puts this on white people. Are you and the author really going to make the claim that is only white LGBT people who use ebonic words and phrases? This situation is irrespective of race or nationality because, again, we all, as gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender folk, seem to be using vernacular slang such as "on fleek" and "Bye, Felicia." along with the words "girl" and "mhm" with flamboyant, emphasized pronunciations that are typically associated with African-American women.

Assuming the only argument appears to be that white people sometimes place "no blacks" in their dating profiles, I feel that this unsubstantiated. I have seen every race advertise their discrimination toward another group of people. Do we hate on people who list "no oldies" in their descriptions because it means they are discriminating against the elderly? No, we do not. Moreover, what does this have to do with African-American men if we are stemming our culture from African-American females? The logic that white gay men are wrong for appropriating another sub-culture because they do not credit or proactively try to date African-American men makes no sense.

3. Yes, the LGBT community is appropriating African-American women.
I know that I seem to be criticizing your thread, but I do wholeheartedly agree that we have adopted the culture of African-American women. I do not think it has to do with the drag balls of Harlem, though.

4. Why do we do it?
Well, my personal theory is that we (the community as a whole, not just white people) find the stereotypical attitudes of the stereotypical, sassy African-American woman stupid but funny enough to embrace their behaviors popularize their phrases. By this, I mean that we all know that "fleek" is nowhere close to proper English and that telling someone "Bye, Felicia." to dismiss their presence does not make sense.

5. What about the "gay voice?"
Is the stereotypical "gay voice" part of this trend? I think that the effeminate mannerisms and dialect of the average gay male sound awfully similar to that of some African-American woman. Does this also count as appropriation or am I wrong to assume they are similar?
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Dessy » 23rd July, 2017, 10:26 pm

Pity wrote:5. What about the "gay voice?"
Is the stereotypical "gay voice" part of this trend? I think that the effeminate mannerisms and dialect of the average gay male sound awfully similar to that of some African-American woman. Does this also count as appropriation or am I wrong to assume they are similar?


??

I never seen the "gay voice" in these kinds of discussion.
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 23rd July, 2017, 11:44 pm

Pity wrote:I do wholeheartedly agree that we have adopted the culture of African-American women.

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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 23rd July, 2017, 11:51 pm

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All African-American women are the same?
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Pity » 23rd July, 2017, 11:58 pm

Ethán wrote:
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All African-American women are the same?



I used "stereotypical" on multiple occasions.
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Togetik » 25th July, 2017, 10:02 am

Every post Pity touches withers and turns to ash under garbage, as is the curse upon us all.

Anyway, revisionism of gay history on Pity's part aside, I agree with Ethan+Dessy+Jonathan appropriation is mostly fine in this context and only retroactively made bad by the kind of rampant racism in the gay community
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Pity » 25th July, 2017, 10:54 am

Togetik wrote:Every post Pity touches withers and turns to ash under garbage, as is the curse upon us all.

Anyway, revisionism of gay history on Pity's part aside, I agree with Ethan+Dessy+Jonathan appropriation is mostly fine in this context and only retroactively made bad by the kind of rampant racism in the gay community.


I agreed with you, though? Do still keep personally attacking me for the edge?

How is the appropriation retroactively made bad by the supposed racism?
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Togetik » 26th July, 2017, 4:50 am

Pity wrote:I agreed with you, though? Do still keep personally attacking me for the edge?


Sort of? You agreed with me in the end but the way you got there is something i completely disagree with

Pity wrote:How is the appropriation retroactively made bad by the supposedracism?


How is dressing up in a kimono retroactively made bad by someone making racist comments against japanese people?
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby ConnorM » 26th July, 2017, 6:59 am

Example wrote:what is gay culture without black culture how can i even have any at all if im white?

In my considered opinion, gay culture today is based in many regards on Oscar Wilde and Liberace. I'm not exactly a "scene" person, and I tend to hightail it whenever the bejeweled fake gas masks come out at Marcella's, because that's simply tacky. However, from what I am aware of the situation, the base awareness of homosexuality as a culture starts originally in English "Molly Houses" - illegal taverns in the late 18th century that were the first recorded, western, modern examples of drag and of gay people openly congregating. This, combined with the powerful influence of certain early gay artists, such as Liberace and Wilde, formed the foundation of the modern gay movement that stagnated until the Stonewall riots. In a sense, the drag tradition that "POC" are now considered to have created was more inherited, or, to use the term that has as of late been overused, "appropriated".

I tend to roll my eyes whenever people talk about "cultural appropriation". The reason is because it doesn't exist as such. Cultural appropriation is simply scrutinizing cultural osmosis with a negative lens. It is natural for cultures to blend, and particularly for certain trends and styles to become popular across ethno-nationalist bounds. For instance, where is British culture without tea? Does the fact that tea originated in China make tea and crumpets less British? Is Japanese culture somehow less intrinsically valuable because they adopted and modified tea ceremony from China? If cinnamon and nutmeg originate solely in the East Indies, and apples originate from a single forest in Kazakstan, does that make apple pie less American?

The degree, therefore, to which black American culture contributed to modern gay culture is functionally irrelevant. No culture and no group of people has a monopoly even on their own culture. Cultures change, form, evolve, and die, but they are never in a vacuum.
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Togetik » 26th July, 2017, 7:09 am

ConnorM wrote:I tend to roll my eyes whenever people talk about "cultural appropriation". The reason is because it doesn't exist as such. Cultural appropriation is simply scrutinizing cultural osmosis with a negative lens. It is natural for cultures to blend, and particularly for certain trends and styles to become popular across ethno-nationalist bounds. For instance, where is British culture without tea? Does the fact that tea originated in China make tea and crumpets less British? Is Japanese culture somehow less intrinsically valuable because they adopted and modified tea ceremony from China? If cinnamon and nutmeg originate solely in the East Indies, and apples originate from a single forest in Kazakstan, does that make apple pie less American?


I think this is a common view but one that doesn't really acknowledge what cultural appropriation actually is, when used in contexts like this? In the negative sense it's kind of explicitly things like native american halloween costumes ect where a culture is being exploited rather than it being the meeting, cross pollination ect of culture
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Pity » 26th July, 2017, 11:19 am

Ooo Connor is bringing out the big guns. I love it.
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Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby ConnorM » 26th July, 2017, 3:28 pm

Togetik wrote:I think this is a common view but one that doesn't really acknowledge what cultural appropriation actually is, when used in contexts like this? In the negative sense it's kind of explicitly things like native american halloween costumes ect where a culture is being exploited rather than it being the meeting, cross pollination ect of culture

What's the difference? What counts as exploitation, and what counts as normal cultural adaptation then? And who's the arbiter of which is which?
Halloween is a surprisingly important part of American culture. Halloween costumes by their very nature are based on exaggerated stereotypes. Some might be in bad taste, yes, but at no point is wearing a shitty costume "cultural appropriation", because there's no claim to it. As costumes are themselves stereotypes, the wearing of a costume is the appropriation of that stereotype, not the culture that the stereotype is based upon.

To repeat; no race or ethnic group has a monopoly on its own culture. To say such is to outright reject the notion of freedom itself. Isn't it racist to say that one cannot join, or even emulate, a group by one's choice rather than by birth? In doing so you say that you must continue to wear the culture you were born with, rather than having a choice to be who you wish to be. Are Native American costumes at halloween tacky? Yes, and in bad taste. Is some white kid wearing a loincloth and a feather in his hair going to somehow destroy Iroquoian, or Sioux, or Pawnee culture? No, because in wearing such, the person is simply claiming the stereotype, not the culture itself.

So, to counter your example of a person wearing a kimono and being racist towards Japanese people, I'll ask; isn't it the same if someone burns an American flag and chants "death to America" while wearing blue jeans? Both items of clothing are important symbols of the cultures they come from. In both cases, the wearer of the clothing is degrading the culture that that clothing comes from. So why is it that the first one is cultural appropriation, whereas the second one is just your average political rally in Iran?
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