POC culture crossing over with gay culture

A forum for the respectful exchange of views on thought-provoking topics, whether sexuality-related or otherwise; please read the guidelines prior to posting.

Forum rules

Welcome to the Intellectual Discussion subforum.

This forum is the place for intellectual discussions, such as philosophical or scientific debates. There are some guidelines that apply specifically to posts in this forum, of which you will be expected to have made yourself aware before participating. They are as follows:

  • Intellectually stimulating topics only. If you can't have a deep discussion about something, it does not belong here.
  • If you're going to post, have something to say. When you make a new thread, write the initial post in a way that provides an introduction to the topic and invites further discussion. You could tell us how you feel and why, but always aim for constructive responses that further a discussion about the ideas involved, rather than a simple list of people's views. (Instead of asking "Are you a vegetarian?", discuss some of the arguments involved.) This guideline likewise applies for responses to topics.
  • Write using good English. That means full sentences with proper capitalisation, punctuation, spelling and grammar. No one is perfect, though; this is not an invitation to criticise others for minor mistakes.
  • Be nice. This is a forum for rational discourse, not flame wars. No one is always right. Be respectful of other people's views and accept that we are all entitled to our own.

These guidelines will be enforced by the moderators based on their best judgement, and anyone who does not take them seriously will lose the privilege of posting here. Spammers will be banned from the entire forum.

Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Togetik » 27th July, 2017, 3:06 am

ConnorM wrote:What's the difference? What counts as exploitation, and what counts as normal cultural adaptation then? And who's the arbiter of which is which?


I think it's pretty clear that there's a difference between cultural exploitation and cultural osmosis, because they have two very different effects and two very different vectors. Drinking tea being a british thing isn't appropriation (But, uh, as with almost everything british there's a wonderful history of brutal colonialism attached to it) but buying a cheap native american headdress for a costume party is.

One is directly exploiting a culture, against the wishes of that culture, though devaluing their culture and degrading it while the other is a technique you use to drink wet leaves



ConnorM wrote:Halloween is a surprisingly important part of American culture. Halloween costumes by their very nature are based on exaggerated stereotypes. Some might be in bad taste, yes, but at no point is wearing a shitty costume "cultural appropriation", because there's no claim to it. As costumes are themselves stereotypes, the wearing of a costume is the appropriation of that stereotype, not the culture that the stereotype is based upon.


No? Because costumes that actively exploit a culture, like the native american example, are completely different to a generic fireman costume. You can't really appropriate a stereotype if you're claiming said stereotype is a generic look used as a costume either?
User avatar
Togetik
Member
 
Posts: 589
Likes received: 79
Joined: 5th February, 2016, 11:24 pm
Country: Australia (au)

Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby ConnorM » 27th July, 2017, 4:16 am

Togetik wrote:I think it's pretty clear that there's a difference between cultural exploitation and cultural osmosis, because they have two very different effects and two very different vectors. Drinking tea being a british thing isn't appropriation (But, uh, as with almost everything british there's a wonderful history of brutal colonialism attached to it) but buying a cheap native american headdress for a costume party is.

Almost anything can be described as "cultural appropriation". Look through tumblr, for one, if you'd like to see thousand-plus-word posts on how everything from halloween costumes to the word "smudge" is an attack on this culture or that culture, and why Australians shouldn't use the word "yo". If there's so much contention over what is or isn't cultural appropriation, and if it's so intermixed with exploitation, then how can it be "pretty clear?

Togetik wrote:One is directly exploiting a culture, against the wishes of that culture, though devaluing their culture and degrading it while the other is a technique you use to drink wet leaves

According to who in that culture? Who is the arbiter of what is or is not cultural appropriation? Does a plebiscite need be held for whether or not white kids wearing feathers in their hair is cultural appropriation?
Togetik wrote:
ConnorM wrote:Halloween is a surprisingly important part of American culture. Halloween costumes by their very nature are based on exaggerated stereotypes. Some might be in bad taste, yes, but at no point is wearing a shitty costume "cultural appropriation", because there's no claim to it. As costumes are themselves stereotypes, the wearing of a costume is the appropriation of that stereotype, not the culture that the stereotype is based upon.


No? Because costumes that actively exploit a culture, like the native american example, are completely different to a generic fireman costume. You can't really appropriate a stereotype if you're claiming said stereotype is a generic look used as a costume either?


Okay, let's go on this trend of halloween costumes. Let's compare this tasteless "Indian Warrior" costume, with, for instance, a viking costume. Now, let's presuppose that the viking costume has horns on the helmet (a common misconception involving vikings, who notably didn't have horns on their helmets) for instance, such as this one here, the "Vicious Viking Costume". Now for the comparison. Both are exaggerations of cultures that were forcibly converted or destroyed by Christian imperialists, and who had a long and troubled history with their white, Christian neighbors over trade disputes that eventually led to the complete destruction of their culture, though not without first achieving at least some military reversals until the pressing numbers of their invaders crushed them. In both cases, the costumes include insultingly incorrect headwear, as the majority of Native American tribes didn't wear headdresses as a general rule, and there is no evidence of Vikings ever having worn horned helmets in battle, however, in both cases, the incorrect image prevails in the public eye. In both cases, the warriors from those cultures were seen as brutal, rapacious barbarians who represented the lack of civilization of nonChristians, when in fact both cultures had complex, meaningful societies of their own. And lastly, in both cases, "sexy" female versions exist, because of course they do. The main difference? Norsemen were white, and weren't annihilated by disease as well, simply left alone for the most part because the only exports from the frozen hellhole that is Scandinavia are Ikea and hot people.

My point isn't that viking costumes are cultural appropriation, my point is that there's a good argument that any given thing is cultural appropriation. As I stated before, the concept of cultural appropriation is simply seeing cultural osmosis in a negative light. Do I think Native American costumes are insulting and tacky? Yes. But I believe that they are insulting and tacky because of their inaccuracy and insensitivity to tragedy, not because of who wears them. The difference is that in my opinion, the costume itself is what is wrong, whereas the lens of cultural appropriation would label the wrongdoing on the person wearing the costume, and only depending on their race.
Image
User avatar
ConnorM
Sir Conor the Incompetent
 
Posts: 417
Likes received: 88
Joined: 14th December, 2013, 11:21 pm
Location: NY
Country: United States (us)

Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby Togetik » 27th July, 2017, 7:31 am

ConnorM wrote:Almost anything can be described as "cultural appropriation". Look through tumblr, for one, if you'd like to see thousand-plus-word posts on how everything from halloween costumes to the word "smudge" is an attack on this culture or that culture, and why Australians shouldn't use the word "yo". If there's so much contention over what is or isn't cultural appropriation, and if it's so intermixed with exploitation, then how can it be "pretty clear?


I actually did look through the most popular stuff tagged as cultural appropriation on tumblr and, while I know you were probably just doing that "lmao tumblr is a place of regressive progressivism" shtick people do, that actually wasn't what was there. The most borderline stuff was a couple of posts of people being mad about cornrows in the context of double standards between white famous people being described positively while black famous people being described negatively for having them.

Going "well, some kids on the internet think this extreme thing!!! so how can this be a clear issue??" doesn't really work.

I also didn't say it was intermixed with exploitation as much as it being essentially a major part of it.

ConnorM wrote:According to who in that culture? Who is the arbiter of what is or is not cultural appropriation? Does a plebiscite need be held for whether or not white kids wearing feathers in their hair is cultural appropriation?


Is racism applied to the same ruleset? Who is the arbiterof what is or isn't racism? It's the same thing, you can't go "Oh the redskins and their logo is fine because my friend who's got native american heritage doesn't care"

If a bunch of southern/central american old ladies having their traditional mayan designs stolen by major companies to sell claim that their culture is being disrespectfully appropriated, is your response to go "Well you don't speak for all elderly women who weave traditional mayan designs so who's to say that you're the arbiter of that being a bad thing?"

"Oh you're not happy that we're selling native american headdresses as costumes, and say that doing so disrespects your rich culture and the deep historical roots of that particular thing? Well who said you're the arbiter of whether it actually is that or not?"

ConnorM wrote:The main difference? Norsemen were white, and weren't annihilated by disease as well, simply left alone for the most part because the only exports from the frozen hellhole that is Scandinavia are Ikea and hot people.

My point isn't that viking costumes are cultural appropriation, my point is that there's a good argument that any given thing is cultural appropriation.


Ok, counter point: Vikings aren't a real, continuing culture that currently exists and their "exaggerated stereotype" isn't based on racist depictions in media? Finely groomed norse men who pray to thor aren't a historically oppressed people who're negatively effected by said sterotype and don't have their living, continual cultural artefacts, history and practices reduced to exotic spectacles purely for corporate greed?

ConnorM wrote:Do I think Native American costumes are insulting and tacky? Yes. But I believe that they are insulting and tacky because of their inaccuracy and insensitivity to tragedy, not because of who wears them.
[/quote]

Ok, here i'm getting confused because you're describing what cultural appropriation is and you're conflating the production and sale of the costumes themselves with... people being bad for wearing them?

I was never arguing that cultural appropriation was the wearing of the costumes, because (while that is technically a part) the appropriation is when the culture is exploited to produce cheap generic merchandise that, as you said, are insulting and tacky because of their inaccuracy and insensitivity to tragedy. The issue isn't that white people are wearing them rather than native americans, it's that the costumes exist at all
User avatar
Togetik
Member
 
Posts: 589
Likes received: 79
Joined: 5th February, 2016, 11:24 pm
Country: Australia (au)

Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby ConnorM » 27th July, 2017, 9:26 am

Togetik wrote:
ConnorM wrote:Almost anything can be described as "cultural appropriation". Look through tumblr, for one, if you'd like to see thousand-plus-word posts on how everything from halloween costumes to the word "smudge" is an attack on this culture or that culture, and why Australians shouldn't use the word "yo". If there's so much contention over what is or isn't cultural appropriation, and if it's so intermixed with exploitation, then how can it be "pretty clear?


I actually did look through the most popular stuff tagged as cultural appropriation on tumblr and, while I know you were probably just doing that "lmao tumblr is a place of regressive progressivism" shtick people do, that actually wasn't what was there. The most borderline stuff was a couple of posts of people being mad about cornrows in the context of double standards between white famous people being described positively while black famous people being described negatively for having them.

The examples I gave were not strawmen. They were posts that I found while looking through the tag approximately ten minutes before writing that. So yes, they were there. As I said, literally there while I was writing it down.
Togetik wrote:
ConnorM wrote:According to who in that culture? Who is the arbiter of what is or is not cultural appropriation? Does a plebiscite need be held for whether or not white kids wearing feathers in their hair is cultural appropriation?


Is racism applied to the same ruleset? Who is the arbiterof what is or isn't racism? It's the same thing, you can't go "Oh the redskins and their logo is fine because my friend who's got native american heritage doesn't care"

If a bunch of southern/central american old ladies having their traditional mayan designs stolen by major companies to sell claim that their culture is being disrespectfully appropriated, is your response to go "Well you don't speak for all elderly women who weave traditional mayan designs so who's to say that you're the arbiter of that being a bad thing?"

"Oh you're not happy that we're selling native american headdresses as costumes, and say that doing so disrespects your rich culture and the deep historical roots of that particular thing? Well who said you're the arbiter of whether it actually is that or not?"

Very mature of you to attempt to discredit my argument by linking the word arbiter its misuse in popular culture. And yes, I do apply this same standard to racism, because reality isn't clear-cut and easily defined. The question was not rhetorical, I hope you understand. I would like you to answer who you think decides if something counts as cultural appropriation or not. How can we say that something is one thing or another if we don't have a definition of what that thing is? To take a legal parallel, for years when pornography was illegal in the United States, the definition of pornography by the Supreme Court was "You know it when you see it". This led to anti-pornography laws being either unenforcible or sporadically enforced. Hence, in order to know what the argument you're making is, I have to know what your definition of cultural appropriation is and who it is that you believe can decide which instances count or not. To take your example of racism, I consider the Southern Poverty Law Center, and organizations like it, as clear examples of the organizations whose opinions on what counts as racism to hold weight.
Togetik wrote:
ConnorM wrote:The main difference? Norsemen were white, and weren't annihilated by disease as well, simply left alone for the most part because the only exports from the frozen hellhole that is Scandinavia are Ikea and hot people.

My point isn't that viking costumes are cultural appropriation, my point is that there's a good argument that any given thing is cultural appropriation.


Ok, counter point: Vikings aren't a real, continuing culture that currently exists and their "exaggerated stereotype" isn't based on racist depictions in media? Finely groomed norse men who pray to thor aren't a historically oppressed people who're negatively effected by said sterotype and don't have their living, continual cultural artefacts, history and practices reduced to exotic spectacles purely for corporate greed?

How many Native Americans still retain their culture in meaningful ways in comparison to Scandinavians? Which of the native tribes haven't been so thoroughly Americanized that the current residents on reservations are Americans in all regards? Are they a marginalized minority? Yes. Does their current situation bear even a passing resemblance to that of their ancestral culture? Not in the slightest. I'd hazard a guess that Indian Reservations, dependent as their economies are on casinos and smokeshops, have exactly as much resemblance to their pre-columbian ancestors' societies as your average Ikea in Sweden does to its pre-Christian Nordic farmstead predecessor.
Togetik wrote:
ConnorM wrote:Do I think Native American costumes are insulting and tacky? Yes. But I believe that they are insulting and tacky because of their inaccuracy and insensitivity to tragedy, not because of who wears them.


Ok, here i'm getting confused because you're describing what cultural appropriation is and you're conflating the production and sale of the costumes themselves with... people being bad for wearing them?

I was never arguing that cultural appropriation was the wearing of the costumes, because (while that is technically a part) the appropriation is when the culture is exploited to produce cheap generic merchandise that, as you said, are insulting and tacky because of their inaccuracy and insensitivity to tragedy. The issue isn't that white people are wearing them rather than native americans, it's that the costumes exist at all

That argument was not necessarily directed at you. It was in response to what Kyler had posited in his original post, asking if;
Example wrote:what is gay culture without black culture how can i even have any at all if im white?

In Kyler's query, you can see that the implication is that the degree to which cultural appropriation applies is dependent on the fact of his race. My counterpoint, through saying the example of the halloween costume, is a criticism of the trend that I have noticed; namely, that people only seem to ring the "cultural appropriation" bell if the person appears physically to be of a different race than the culture it comes from. How many people have been up in arms about people of majority native descent (I should point out that just about everyone in America claims at least a tiny fraction of native descent) wearing those same costumes? I know for a damn fact that it happens, because alongside all of the "look at this white girl appropriating our culture" posts and articles that you see, you can easily find articles of people of those cultures wearing those costumes. So, if it's the costumes' existence itself that is the problem, why is it that a person of that culture that is being exploited wearing them not a problem? When a person of the marginalized culture wears the costume in protest, it is seen as "powerful" or "brave", despite it doing exactly as much to feed the cycle of exploitation as a person outside the marginalized culture doing the same.
Image
User avatar
ConnorM
Sir Conor the Incompetent
 
Posts: 417
Likes received: 88
Joined: 14th December, 2013, 11:21 pm
Location: NY
Country: United States (us)

Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby freakism » 22nd August, 2017, 11:32 am

I'd always understood that the issue with Native American costumes was that a feather head-dress is built up from being rewarded for impressive feats/victories in battle etc. so that they are in fact very similar to the idea of medals in other cultures. In most countries if you paraded round with a rack of medals as part of your costume, then some people in the military kinda get annoyed because medals mean something. The same applies to head-dresses (or at least this is my understanding; this could be entirely false).

As a concept I've not really come across any other examples of 'cultural appropriation' that weren't just either people being racist/insensitive, or just an example of people adopting something that they liked.
I've seen people complain about white people with dreadlocks as 'appropriation' before, and honestly I don't get it? I admit I haven't peered too deeply into it but from what I have come across, it's just a bit bizarre.
GTF House Cup 2016 - Team Middle Earth
User avatar
freakism
Head tllt boy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
First name: Harry
Posts: 504
Likes received: 127
Joined: 13th June, 2016, 12:44 pm
Country: United Kingdom (gb)

Re: POC culture crossing over with gay culture

Unread postby George » 22nd August, 2017, 12:10 pm

The issue with dreadlocks is that they are the hair equivalent of pasta; its origins are strongly disputed. Whilst we know that it predominantly an african trend, it has also been observed in celts and other ancient civilisations, and thus some people justify and others refute it. But I concur with the general point, the only other actual cultural appropriation I've seen is insensitivity. I do however think that the line between appropriation and appreciation has been significantly blurred.
Image
Image Hi, I'm George. Never met Me before? Image
User avatar
George
Diaper Rash
 
First name: George
Posts: 1858
Likes received: 102
Joined: 11th December, 2012, 11:56 am
Location: Essex
Country: United Kingdom (gb)

Previous

Recently active
Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], CommonCrawl [Bot] and 7 guests