Islamic Thread

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Re: Reality

Unread postby boiii » 29th April, 2017, 9:13 am

Khomeni wrote:There are two genders. Any homosexual is a failed attempt at life, and will only set back the human race


hey stud, :P oh this thread is about islam :keke:

I'm sorry sis :heart: , but you posted that in the wrong thread fam.
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Re: Reality

Unread postby TheBrunswickian » 29th April, 2017, 9:20 am

boiii wrote:
Khomeni wrote:There are two genders. Any homosexual is a failed attempt at life, and will only set back the human race


hey stud, :P oh this thread is about islam :keke:

I'm sorry sis :heart: , but you posted that in the wrong thread fam.

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Re: Reality

Unread postby TheBrunswickian » 29th April, 2017, 9:21 am

Khomeni wrote:There are two genders. Any homosexual is a failed attempt at life, and will only set back the human race

you must be new here
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Cxurujeto » 29th April, 2017, 4:37 pm

Erebos wrote:
Cxurujeto wrote:
TheBrunswickian wrote:
boiii wrote:
TheBrunswickian wrote:
Dmitzi wrote:Islam is a violent, backwards, misogynistic, antisemitic, homophobic religion with no place in the 21st century.

Literally the same can be Christianity depending on where you look. Its degrading and frankly arrogant to pretend like the issues faced in the Islamic community are not experienced inside other religious groups.


nobody was pretending it is only islam and you are right. It does seem to be a much bigger problem in islamic countries however.

Homosexuality was decriminalised in its final jurisdiction in Australia in 1996. The "gay panic" defence was only just abolished in Queensland. It's still active in South Australia. New anti-gay laws have been enacted in Belarus, Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, Ghana - I could go on. It is not more prevalent in Muslim countries, its just more spoken about because they are not Christians.


I do think it is fair to say homophobia is more prevalent in Islamic countries. The only country I can think of as being at least mildly tolerant of gay people is Turkey, but they still have a lot of problems. They have a pride parade in some cities but discrimination and violence are still widespread. All the others are homophobic. Whereas for Christian countries, the ratio is not as homophobic, it is a bit more balanced. The one Jewish country is very tolerant. Buddhist country ratios are probably somewhere in between Christian and Islamic. I know that Homosexuality in Sri Lanka, a Buddhist country with minorities of Hindus, Muslims, and Christians, is not mainstream and is not talked about, but I also know that the homophobia in Sri Lanka is more culturally linked than religiously linked. Sikhism, from India, is generally homophobic. Nepal, Japan, and Taiwan are the most progressive countries in Eastern Asia with regards to homosexuality. Nepal is mostly Buddhist and they are perhaps more progressive for trans people that a lot of western countries, Japan I'm not sure but I know that there are a lot of Buddists there and it is part of a lot of the culture. Taiwan I'm not sure about religion-wise. Vietnam is said to be making a lot of progress. India suffers from prevalent homophobia, but I read that homosexuality was not as much of an issue before the 18th c. there.
On the countries you mention, I can provide some numbers, and I contest you mentioning Nigeria:
Belarus is Orthodox Christian, but only 43% of the population say they adhere to it as of 2011
Uganda is 85% Christian, mostly Catholics
Kenya is 83% Christian, 10% Muslim
Ghana is 69% Christian and 16% Muslim
Nigeria which is regarded as extremely homophobic, is not a Christian country. 58% of the population is Christian, and while that is a majority, it is 41% Muslim, so I think that the two percentages are too close for it to be considered one or the other.

It is definitely fair to say Islam tends to be more homophobic in practice.


What you say is true, but for one you decide it is culturally linked and for another it is religious while not actually saying why. A bit weird. Also if you really follow the bible, homossxuality is also a sin. So real religious Christians should also be as accepting as Muslims. They arent because not that many people are devout Christians. So your point is a bit flawed.


The bible says it is a sin, in some interpretations.

Sharia Law/ Islamic Law says one is not to deal with gays and that they commit evil sexual acts. That they are gay due to Satan. And that they are either to be punish, or sentenced to death by stoning, being set on fire, or being thrown off a high building.

You tell me which seems more homophobic
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Vortex » 29th April, 2017, 6:20 pm

Cxurujeto wrote:The bible says it is a sin, in some interpretations.

Sharia Law/ Islamic Law says one is not to deal with gays and that they commit evil sexual acts. That they are gay due to Satan. And that they are either to be punish, or sentenced to death by stoning, being set on fire, or being thrown off a high building.

You tell me which seems more homophobic

Holy fuck I wanna be surprised by this but I am not. Here we go!

Leviticus 20:13:

“If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.” - American Standard Version

"And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them." -Bible in Basic English

"If a man has sexual intercourse with a man as he would with a woman, the two of them have done something detestable. They must be executed; their blood is on their own heads." - Common English Bible

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." -King James Version

More here.

I am too lazy but here is Roman's 1:26, 27, and 28.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Littlenorthernboy » 29th April, 2017, 10:01 pm

The bible states it's a sin. The Bible does not. *
* using bible with small first letter when modern connotation would not have same meaning than in the original version or along the way it had caused misinterpretations for newer bibles, and with capital letter as in "Bible" when it contains the word of God uncorrupted by the world and translation is having same meaning (not word, meaning) than in original version.

Actually leviticus states:

Leviticus 18:22, “You shall not lie with (shakab) mankind as (you lie) with (mishkab) womankind; it is an abomination (to'ebah).”

Leviticus 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with (shakab) a male as those who lie with (mishkab) a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”

In bible shakab has been used for 52 times for sexual meaning. Surely shakab is used similiar way in the other 50 and these 2 verses in leviticus.. also it would be unsound not to look at the immediate verses before and after the both leviticus verses that give context to the use of shakab.

In other verses where shakab is used in sexual meaning it has the context of rape, coercion or adultery.

Here you can check for yourself the use of shakab in all verses of you believe me not.

https://moanti.wordpress.com/2013/02/16 ... scripture/

It is also very much more than just a coincidence that leviticus 18:21 is about idolatry: " 'Thou shalt not give any of thy seed (zera -זָ֫רַע) to be consecrated to the idol Moloch, nor defile the name of thy God : I am the Lord.' "
As the word to'ebah is linked to idolatrous abomination, it is clear that leviticus 18:22 is a continuation to 18:21. Temple prostitution in ancient Israel was a real problem. People were practicing idolatry in their ancient temples. They for example were trying to gain better fertility of crops or increase womens' fertility by even sacrificing children. One form of how they were sealing the deal was temple prostitution. As most temple prostitutes were males, it is emphasized in the scripture. The word shakab is thus refering to idolatrous sex that is also deception against God. To have sexual intercourse with temple prostitutes to seal the idolatrous ritual is forbidden. Another way to seal this was by having sexual intercourse with animals, which is found in leviticus 18:23: [both 22 and 23 to compare them:] "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. (23) Also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it; it is a perversion."

Leviticus 20:13 describes what will happen if one is doing this sort of idolatry: (note that in leviticus, it first describes the sin and then the consequence. For example lev 15:24 --> 20:18 and ofc 18:22 --> 20:13)
Lev 20:13: “If a man also lie (shakab) with mankind, as he lieth (mishkab) with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death ; their blood shall be upon them."

The conclusion: lev 18:21-23 is about idolatry, worshipping false gods and about how there was practised this idolatry with form of different rituals involving many times some of the following 1) child sacrifice (18:21), 2) temple prostitution (18:22) or 3) sexual intercourse with animal (18:23). God does not like idolatry and thus in 20:13 it is stated that this idolatry should result in death. Also verses 20:12 “And if a man lie (shakab) with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death : they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.” and 20:14 "And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you" are also describing how other sins mentioned in leviticus should be punished for.

To summarize: the translators might have used certain words that have had different connotation in the time they had it written, and then connotations having changed, many ppl have erred and gone further from the truth. In order to find what Bible, not bible*, means, one should seek for the original context, immediate context, sometimes historic context, and even book-wise or wholly biblical context, also the audience might affect - whom are the ones certain parts are adressed to. Oftentimes having to read about how words/ language was used in original version, if not knowing the language then reading summaries and commentaries for all views and combining them all for the truth for there is but 1 truth in Bible. If you get all the pieces together, it is quite clear, it does not conflict within itself when you take in mind all of those factors I just stated.

Original context would be about temple prostitution for lev 18:22 and 20:13, since historically there was not problem of gays but for temple prostitution - temple prostitution was quite widespread in ancient Israel's time. I also gave immediate context, book-wise context and biblical context.. the Bible has multiple verses that people misunderstand because connotation switch, for example dealing with what hapens immediately after death or whether there is rapture or not, etc.


Islam does in general state the things the author of this thread has mentioned about gays. Book of leviticus is not as much used in Islam, most muslims think both old and new testament are corrupted, though original Torah is considered a holy scrupture for them, from which leviticus is one. Islam uses more of the story of lot and sodom when considering gays, so that shall be my next topic on this thread.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby GayArabStoner » 8th May, 2017, 2:10 pm

If you are not Muslim then you have no right to critique the religion thats how it goes unless you are a muslim then your opinion is irrelevant. I've been looking at the replies on here and some of them are just pure ignorance like if any of you where to do your research you'd find that in fact the majority of muslim countries had no anti lgbt laws and that in the past many of them where more lgbt plus than Europe eg Morocco in the 13th century the Sultans daughter Fatima owned a Hamamm for just Lesbians and gay men were hired to cry at funerals all of this under an islamic Caliph, you can imagine that if this had been Europe it would have been a LOT more negative. Going back to my earlier point it wasn't until western countries colonised muslim Countries that anti-lgbt laws where put into place by the white man. I'm not going to deny that homophobia is prevalent in islamic societies but if you're not a muslim or an Arab its really not your business, you think Muslims are out there to get your gay ass? you couldn't be more wrong like we have much better things to do/care about. A lot of people have it confused islam bans gay sex but not actually being gay and four witnesses would need to be present making it near impossible for someone to be actually convicted of the crime now im not saying this is ok in anyway but compared to other religions it was a lot more lax and made it harder for people to be punished so yeah thats all i have to say but this sounds like you have a lot more issues with Islam than just this because a variety of other Religions also forbid homosexuality.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 8th May, 2017, 2:47 pm

GayArabStoner wrote:If you are not Muslim then you have no right to critique the religion thats how it goes unless you are a muslim then your opinion is irrelevant.


Islam is an intellectual movement and, like all belief sets, deserves to be criticised. Republicans ought not be the only people to criticise the Republican movement, and Communists ought not be the only people who criticise Communism. If you limit criticise of a movement to those who already adhere to it, you’re limiting the potential for (possibly necessary) reform; Muslims are less likely to want to criticise Islam, and if they do wish to, they’re going to be much less objective.

You might quite rightly argue that Muslims know more about Islam (though there are many Westerners who know just as much, through intensive research or otherwise), but I see no reason to them the right to engage. Perhaps you might want to explain yourself a bit more on this one.

I've been looking at the replies on here and some of them are just pure ignorance like if any of you where to do your research you'd find that in fact the majority of muslim countries had no anti lgbt laws and that in the past many of them where more lgbt plus than Europe eg Morocco in the 13th century the Sultans daughter Fatima owned a Hamamm for just Lesbians and gay men were hired to cry at funerals all of this under an islamic Caliph, you can imagine that if this had been Europe it would have been a LOT more negative.


Like I said in my post: any Islamic acceptance of homosexuality (just as with Christianity) goes against scripture. You cannot proclaim to be a non-hypocritical Muslim and accept homosexuality. However, Muslims’ have been willing to be hypocritical and accepting of homosexuality for centuries, and attitudes depend more on the social conditions of the time than religious scripture. The fact that Muslims were more accepting in the medieval period (and, in fact, as late as the 19th Century) proves this: the level of homophobia isn’t determined by religion, but by people’s willingness to ignore it, which varies from period to period as history changes. It just so happens that, nowadays, the social conditions are such that orthodoxy and extremism have been encouraged, and Muslim countries have become very socially conservative.

Islam may not be a religion of tolerance and peace, but I think scripture is irrelevant because it has little impact on attitudes (unless, for some reason, you get a revival of extremism and orthodoxy, which can always be put down to some external factor).

Going back to my earlier point it wasn't until western countries colonised muslim Countries that anti-lgbt laws where put into place by the white man.


This is true, and I think xenophobes can have a tendency to forget the homophobic legacy of colonialism (in both Africa and the Ottoman Empire). That said, the fact that European empires played a role in Islamic homophobia is insignificant in a discussion about modern Islamic attitudes which are, as you say, terrible.

I'm not going to deny that homophobia is prevalent in islamic societies but if you're not a muslim or an Arab its really not your business, you think Muslims are out there to get your gay ass? you couldn't be more wrong like we have much better things to do/care about. A lot of people have it confused islam bans gay sex but not actually being gay and four witnesses would need to be present making it near impossible for someone to be actually convicted of the crime now im not saying this is ok in anyway but compared to other religions it was a lot more lax and made it harder for people to be punished so yeah thats all i have to say but this sounds like you have a lot more issues with Islam than just this because a variety of other Religions also forbid homosexuality.


But as members of the gay community, is it not our right to care about the security of gays around the world? If your argument is that Islamic issues can only be commented on by Muslims (something I’ve already argued against), then surely only gays should be able to comment on homosexuality?

Many Muslims may not be out to ‘get my gay ass,’ but many living in the Middle East (and in Islamic immigrant families) experience harsh repression and homophobia. Many might care more about other things, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t still a problem, particularly with attitudes and values.

And I’m not sure arguing that ‘being gay isn’t banned, only gay sex’ is a particularly effective criticism. I can’t name a single historic anti-gay law which persecutes people for being gay, because homosexuality wasn’t really acknowledged as a fundamental condition (and still isn’t in many Muslim countries, I don’t think). Homosexuality is presented as a sinful deviation not a character trait, and so obviously they’re only going to legislate on people who have gay sex.

And I’m less worried about state-sanctioned punishment than I am about vigilante action (e.g Maldives and Iraq), the overwhelming social pressure not to be gay, and the stigma/total rejection if you did come out. Even in countries like Jordan where being gay is legal, the police have made excuses for raiding and closing ‘gay hangouts.’ Also, the four witness thing may be enshrined in Islamic law but I don’t think it’s always like that in modern legal systems- Wikipedia is full of examples of gays who have been prosecuted without that many witnesses being necessary.

A variety of other religions (most, in fact) condemn homosexuality, but many have moved beyond homophobic persecution which is now worse in Muslim countries than anywhere else. I don’t put that down to Islam itself (though it is, like most religions, fundamentally violent and intolerant), but think changing social conditions have forced people to revert to the more homophobic aspects of scripture.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby GayArabStoner » 8th May, 2017, 3:09 pm

JonathanT88 wrote:
GayArabStoner wrote:If you are not Muslim then you have no right to critique the religion thats how it goes unless you are a muslim then your opinion is irrelevant.


Islam is an intellectual movement and, like all belief sets, deserves to be criticised. Republicans ought not be the only people to criticise the Republican movement, and Communists ought not be the only people who criticise Communism. If you limit criticise of a movement to those who already adhere to it, you’re limiting the potential for (possibly necessary) reform; Muslims are less likely to want to criticise Islam, and if they do wish to, they’re going to be much less objective.

You might quite rightly argue that Muslims know more about Islam (though there are many Westerners who know just as much, through intensive research or otherwise), but I see no reason to them the right to engage. Perhaps you might want to explain yourself a bit more on this one.

I've been looking at the replies on here and some of them are just pure ignorance like if any of you where to do your research you'd find that in fact the majority of muslim countries had no anti lgbt laws and that in the past many of them where more lgbt plus than Europe eg Morocco in the 13th century the Sultans daughter Fatima owned a Hamamm for just Lesbians and gay men were hired to cry at funerals all of this under an islamic Caliph, you can imagine that if this had been Europe it would have been a LOT more negative.


Like I said in my post: any Islamic acceptance of homosexuality (just as with Christianity) goes against scripture. You cannot proclaim to be a non-hypocritical Muslim and accept homosexuality. However, Muslims’ have been willing to be hypocritical and accepting of homosexuality for centuries, and attitudes depend more on the social conditions of the time than religious scripture. The fact that Muslims were more accepting in the medieval period (and, in fact, as late as the 19th Century) proves this: the level of homophobia isn’t determined by religion, but by people’s willingness to ignore it, which varies from period to period as history changes. It just so happens that, nowadays, the social conditions are such that orthodoxy and extremism have been encouraged, and Muslim countries have become very socially conservative.

Islam may not be a religion of tolerance and peace, but I think scripture is irrelevant because it has little impact on attitudes (unless, for some reason, you get a revival of extremism and orthodoxy, which can always be put down to some external factor).

Going back to my earlier point it wasn't until western countries colonised muslim Countries that anti-lgbt laws where put into place by the white man.


This is true, and I think xenophobes can have a tendency to forget the homophobic legacy of colonialism (in both Africa and the Ottoman Empire). That said, the fact that European empires played a role in Islamic homophobia is insignificant in a discussion about modern Islamic attitudes which are, as you say, terrible.

I'm not going to deny that homophobia is prevalent in islamic societies but if you're not a muslim or an Arab its really not your business, you think Muslims are out there to get your gay ass? you couldn't be more wrong like we have much better things to do/care about. A lot of people have it confused islam bans gay sex but not actually being gay and four witnesses would need to be present making it near impossible for someone to be actually convicted of the crime now im not saying this is ok in anyway but compared to other religions it was a lot more lax and made it harder for people to be punished so yeah thats all i have to say but this sounds like you have a lot more issues with Islam than just this because a variety of other Religions also forbid homosexuality.


But as members of the gay community, is it not our right to care about the security of gays around the world? If your argument is that Islamic issues can only be commented on by Muslims (something I’ve already argued against), then surely only gays should be able to comment on homosexuality?

Many Muslims may not be out to ‘get my gay ass,’ but many living in the Middle East (and in Islamic immigrant families) experience harsh repression and homophobia. Many might care more about other things, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t still a problem, particularly with attitudes and values.

And I’m not sure arguing that ‘being gay isn’t banned, only gay sex’ is a particularly effective criticism. I can’t name a single historic anti-gay law which persecutes people for being gay, because homosexuality wasn’t really acknowledged as a fundamental condition (and still isn’t in many Muslim countries, I don’t think). Homosexuality is presented as a sinful deviation not a character trait, and so obviously they’re only going to legislate on people who have gay sex.

And I’m less worried about state-sanctioned punishment than I am about vigilante action (e.g Maldives and Iraq), the overwhelming social pressure not to be gay, and the stigma/total rejection if you did come out. Even in countries like Jordan where being gay is legal, the police have made excuses for raiding and closing ‘gay hangouts.’ Also, the four witness thing may be enshrined in Islamic law but I don’t think it’s always like that in modern legal systems- Wikipedia is full of examples of gays who have been prosecuted without that many witnesses being necessary.

A variety of other religions (most, in fact) condemn homosexuality, but many have moved beyond homophobic persecution which is now worse in Muslim countries than anywhere else. I don’t put that down to Islam itself (though it is, like most religions, fundamentally violent and intolerant), but think changing social conditions have forced people to revert to the more homophobic aspects of scripture.


I stand by what i said non muslims don't have a say as they where not brought up in a muslim environment and our experiences are completely different. And the Quran is open to interpretation if i choose to accept some parts and not others thats my business and so identifying as a gay muslim is permissible and many do. i do agree with you there, it is our job to make care about the security of gays around the world and coming from a muslim immigrant family myself i personally know how hard it is however i find it hard to believe that these people really care about the security of gays around the world, i believe that they have ulterior motives, why not talk about gay hindus prosecuted in india? Why is there no thread about the displacement of the Palestinian people i am sure many of them are members of the LGBTQ community i find that the majority of people who begin their sentences with "i have no issue with islam but..." really do have an issue with islam, and yes i completely agree but who is to blame here? Islam does not openly preach homophobia it is mentioned a few surats and is barley focused on it is more a problem with how people interpret it and like i mentioned earlier the west has had an influence on implementing anti LGBT laws in muslim countries so i find it ironic that you now criticise us for the laws you put in place. In conclusion i agree that yes we have a lot of problems but is starting a thread to going to fix anything ? Is criticising the religion i assume most of you barely know anything about changing anything? There are a variety of movements in the middle east and north Africa trying to change things and we have in the past few years and will continuo to do so. In the words of the prophet "if you have nothing good to say then shut the fuck up".
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Scherzy » 8th May, 2017, 4:17 pm

GayArabStoner wrote:I stand by what i said non muslims don't have a say as they where not brought up in a muslim environment and our experiences are completely different. And the Quran is open to interpretation if i choose to accept some parts and not others thats my business and so identifying as a gay muslim is permissible and many do. i do agree with you there, it is our job to make care about the security of gays around the world and coming from a muslim immigrant family myself i personally know how hard it is however i find it hard to believe that these people really care about the security of gays around the world, i believe that they have ulterior motives, why not talk about gay hindus prosecuted in india? Why is there no thread about the displacement of the Palestinian people i am sure many of them are members of the LGBTQ community i find that the majority of people who begin their sentences with "i have no issue with islam but..." really do have an issue with islam, and yes i completely agree but who is to blame here? Islam does not openly preach homophobia it is mentioned a few surats and is barley focused on it is more a problem with how people interpret it and like i mentioned earlier the west has had an influence on implementing anti LGBT laws in muslim countries so i find it ironic that you now criticise us for the laws you put in place. In conclusion i agree that yes we have a lot of problems but is starting a thread to going to fix anything ? Is criticising the religion i assume most of you barely know anything about changing anything? There are a variety of movements in the middle east and north Africa trying to change things and we have in the past few years and will continuo to do so. In the words of the prophet "if you have nothing good to say then shut the fuck up".

As an Israeli Jew I hold the responsibility to objectively observe and criticize the oppression of Palestinians and Arab-Israelis, and I do. I believe in a two state solution, and I believe that even if it impacts my family, economic sanctions on Israel should be instated until they cut it the fuck out.
Equally, as a Gay Muslim, you have the obligation to recognize the flaws within you own people. Whether you see it in your community and friends or no, its straight fact that modern Islamic culture and politics enforce a brutally conservative (and often deadly) policy and subsequently, society. As a violent religion, from a scriptural perspective Islam is on the same level as christianity and judaism, no one's denying that. But in the 21st century that violence has manifested itself in Islam more than any religion.
I can fully understand why you feel attacked - the islam we're talking about is not the one you know, its not your family's nor your community's. But it exists. You can't be subjective about that. Israel has problems, Islam has problems, America has problems, and thats totally fucking ok. Problems exist to be solved, not denied!

Also: Homophobia in india and hindu culture isn't so relevant because it's a direct product of british rule, and though that same imperialism in the 19th century did affect conservatism in muslim majority countries, what matters now is that the homophobia/sexism/etc. continues being perpetuated largely by means of islam. Whether you like it or not, islam is used to advocate prejudice and oppression exactly like christianity is.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 8th May, 2017, 4:28 pm

GayArabStoner wrote:I stand by what i said non muslims don't have a say as they where not brought up in a muslim environment and our experiences are completely different.


Experience doesn’t give you a monopoly over criticism, I’m afraid. Experience can also cloud people’s judgements on certain things, where (like I said) non-Muslims might be capable of criticising the religion more objectively. We may not know exactly what it feels like to be a Muslim, but that doesn’t mean we can’t assess the evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion. Also, you may be a Muslim but I'm sure you don't have experience of life in every Muslim country we're mentioning in this thread (Iraq? Syria). The Arab world is very diverse and conditions very across it, and I doubt any Muslim is able to adequately explain it all with their 'experience.'

Also, Islamic scripture and the interpretation of that is totally different from the ‘muslim environment and [y]our experiences.” One refers to a text anyone can access, the other refers to the practical manifestation of its ideas in society which, I concede, Muslims are likely to be more knowledgeable about. (Though not in all cases- a white Islamic scholar will know more than your typical Muslims due to a broad overview, access to various pieces of evidence, etc.)

And the Quran is open to interpretation if i choose to accept some parts and not others thats my business and so identifying as a gay muslim is permissible and many do.


Permissable and something I have no problem with if it provides you with comfort and a sense of community, but something which is at odds with scripture (and I think it’s dishonest not to admit this).

i do agree with you there, it is our job to make care about the security of gays around the world and coming from a muslim immigrant family myself i personally know how hard it is however i find it hard to believe that these people really care about the security of gays around the world, i believe that they have ulterior motives, why not talk about gay hindus prosecuted in india? Why is there no thread about the displacement of the Palestinian people i am sure many of them are members of the LGBTQ community i find that the majority of people who begin their sentences with "i have no issue with islam but..." really do have an issue with islam, and yes i completely agree but who is to blame here?


Few people talk about gay Hindus because India (however interesting I find it, and however much I personally read about Indian politics) is hardly as relevant to the modern world as the Middle East, with all the terrorist attacks and wars we’ve decided to start there. I’m sure there has been a thread about the Israel/Palestine crisis in the past, and you’ll be glad to know I tend to side with Palestinians and their right to nationhood.

I’m sure Islam and terrorism are over-discussed and perhaps this does have something to do with xenophobia. However, this shouldn’t negate the fact that reasonable and rational criticisms of Islam and its practice in the Muslim community do exist, and we should shy away from challenging them, because that’s the only way we can bring about change.

Just for reference: I don’t have an issue with Muslims (many of whom practice Islam peacefully, and who derive a great deal of personal satisfaction from it) but I do have an issue with Islam itself, just as I do with Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and most other major religions. I think they’re authoritarian and highly damaging in their promotion of a set moral code, deviation from which is harshly punished. I think they’re out of date and largely incompatible with modern living. I think Gods (for whose existence there is no compelling evidence) were invented in order to provide a sense of greater meaning to life (where there is none) and to condition people into behaving in a certain way, and I think religion has frequently hindered human progress. Of course I’m willing to have my ideas criticised, but hatred of Islam comes not from xenophobia but from dislike for all religions, and should not be confused for a dislike of practicing Muslims, or Christians, or Jews.

Islam does not openly preach homophobia it is mentioned a few surats and is barley focused on it is more a problem with how people interpret it and like i mentioned earlier the west has had an influence on implementing anti LGBT laws in muslim countries so i find it ironic that you now criticise us for the laws you put in place.


The Quran is the unaltered word of God, is it not? If so, I don’t see why the scarcity of its appearances really matters. I imagine UK law only states once that murder is a crime, but it’s still a crime.

And like I said, you need to distinguish the practical impact of Islam on countries’ laws (which was clearly minimal in some areas, as you pointed out) from scripture itself. As I argued, I believe the way in which people choose to interpret their religion to be entirely down to social conditions. For example, your decision to ignore the anti-gay bits of Islam isn’t rooted in scripture, but in the Western, mostly accepting culture you live in.

Okay, Imperial Westerners implemented homophobic laws where previously they did not exist. Two hundred years later, is that still an excuse to leave homophobia and intolerance unchallenged in the Middle East? Did imperialism lead to the current rise in Islamic extremism (from both guerrilla terrorist groups and governments)? I’m also not sure I can personally be held responsible for undeniable crimes of imperial Britain, France, Spain, etc, nor do I feel I should be made to incorporate their actions in to the formation of my opinions.


In conclusion i agree that yes we have a lot of problems but is starting a thread to going to fix anything ? Is criticising the religion i assume most of you barely know anything about changing anything? There are a variety of movements in the middle east and north Africa trying to change things and we have in the past few years and will continuo to do so. In the words of the prophet "if you have nothing good to say then shut the fuck up".


No thread is going to fix anything, regardless of the topic we’re discussing. But discussion is nice, and it’s important for young people to be about to do it. I’m sorry if you took offense, but I don’t think I can name a single member who will look down on you for being a Muslim, even though many take issue with the religion you’re (perfectly within your right to be) loyal to. We just ask that you accept our criticism of it. :P I’m a leftist: I believe in freedom for Palestinians, equal rights for all (including right to practice religion) and the elimination of racism in our society. However, I believe it is my job as a leftist to challenge intolerant and authoritarian ideologies where I see them and, I’m afraid, I consider Islam just that.

I’m glad there are movements for change in the Middle East- with luck they’ll be able to embrace the social liberalism and anti-authoritarian radicalism prevalent through much of the region’s history.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby GayArabStoner » 8th May, 2017, 5:01 pm

Scherzy wrote:
GayArabStoner wrote:I stand by what i said non muslims don't have a say as they where not brought up in a muslim environment and our experiences are completely different. And the Quran is open to interpretation if i choose to accept some parts and not others thats my business and so identifying as a gay muslim is permissible and many do. i do agree with you there, it is our job to make care about the security of gays around the world and coming from a muslim immigrant family myself i personally know how hard it is however i find it hard to believe that these people really care about the security of gays around the world, i believe that they have ulterior motives, why not talk about gay hindus prosecuted in india? Why is there no thread about the displacement of the Palestinian people i am sure many of them are members of the LGBTQ community i find that the majority of people who begin their sentences with "i have no issue with islam but..." really do have an issue with islam, and yes i completely agree but who is to blame here? Islam does not openly preach homophobia it is mentioned a few surats and is barley focused on it is more a problem with how people interpret it and like i mentioned earlier the west has had an influence on implementing anti LGBT laws in muslim countries so i find it ironic that you now criticise us for the laws you put in place. In conclusion i agree that yes we have a lot of problems but is starting a thread to going to fix anything ? Is criticising the religion i assume most of you barely know anything about changing anything? There are a variety of movements in the middle east and north Africa trying to change things and we have in the past few years and will continuo to do so. In the words of the prophet "if you have nothing good to say then shut the fuck up".

As an Israeli Jew I hold the responsibility to objectively observe and criticize the oppression of Palestinians and Arab-Israelis, and I do. I believe in a two state solution, and I believe that even if it impacts my family, economic sanctions on Israel should be instated until they cut it the fuck out.
Equally, as a Gay Muslim, you have the obligation to recognize the flaws within you own people. Whether you see it in your community and friends or no, its straight fact that modern Islamic culture and politics enforce a brutally conservative (and often deadly) policy and subsequently, society. As a violent religion, from a scriptural perspective Islam is on the same level as christianity and judaism, no one's denying that. But in the 21st century that violence has manifested itself in Islam more than any religion.
I can fully understand why you feel attacked - the islam we're talking about is not the one you know, its not your family's nor your community's. But it exists. You can't be subjective about that. Israel has problems, Islam has problems, America has problems, and thats totally fucking ok. Problems exist to be solved, not denied!

Also: Homophobia in india and hindu culture isn't so relevant because it's a direct product of british rule, and though that same imperialism in the 19th century did affect conservatism in muslim majority countries, what matters now is that the homophobia/sexism/etc. continues being perpetuated largely by means of islam. Whether you like it or not, islam is used to advocate prejudice and oppression exactly like christianity is.


Well a two state solution is one way to do things but i doubt it'll work and i do??? like look at my other posts i acknowledge the fact that Arab society's are flawed but i don't need other people to tell me what i all ready know especially when its got nothing to do with them, that is what i am pissed off about. The people here stretch out their hands with mock sympathy talking about how they just want to help us and how islam is so "violent" and how we are so "oppressed" like no we do not need nor want your opinions that you can give as they are not your people and you suffer no consequences. "the islam we're talking about is not the one you know, its not your family's nor your community's. But it exists" I never denied its existence but the Islam in question is practiced by few you need to understand that, "Also: Homophobia in india and hindu culture isn't so relevant because it's a direct product of British rule, and though that same imperialism in the 19th century did affect conservatism in muslim majority countries, what matters now is that the homophobia/sexism/etc. continues being perpetuated largely by means of islam. Whether you like it or not, islam is used to advocate prejudice and oppression exactly like christianity is" literally tho??? Homophobia and Sexism is still being perpetuated by means of Hinduism like its exactly the same thing ? it is just as relevant and you said it your self islam is "used". "violence has manifested itself in Islam more than any religion" yeah but who's fault is that? All the wars? The systematic genocides? Like ive said this time and time again and i will continuo to do so for the rest of my life , Europe is the source of the majority if not all of the strife in the middle east and as a result you will obviously see an increase in terrorism so maybe when the majority of Christian countries becomes a war zone and millions have died and their resources leached by the rest of the world can you compare the two but it hasn't so you cant??
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby GayArabStoner » 8th May, 2017, 5:15 pm

JonathanT88 wrote:
GayArabStoner wrote:I stand by what i said non muslims don't have a say as they where not brought up in a muslim environment and our experiences are completely different.


Experience doesn’t give you a monopoly over criticism, I’m afraid. Experience can also cloud people’s judgements on certain things, where (like I said) non-Muslims might be capable of criticising the religion more objectively. We may not know exactly what it feels like to be a Muslim, but that doesn’t mean we can’t assess the evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion. Also, you may be a Muslim but I'm sure you don't have experience of life in every Muslim country we're mentioning in this thread (Iraq? Syria). The Arab world is very diverse and conditions very across it, and I doubt any Muslim is able to adequately explain it all with their 'experience.'

Also, Islamic scripture and the interpretation of that is totally different from the ‘muslim environment and [y]our experiences.” One refers to a text anyone can access, the other refers to the practical manifestation of its ideas in society which, I concede, Muslims are likely to be more knowledgeable about. (Though not in all cases- a white Islamic scholar will know more than your typical Muslims due to a broad overview, access to various pieces of evidence, etc.)

And the Quran is open to interpretation if i choose to accept some parts and not others thats my business and so identifying as a gay muslim is permissible and many do.


Permissable and something I have no problem with if it provides you with comfort and a sense of community, but something which is at odds with scripture (and I think it’s dishonest not to admit this).

i do agree with you there, it is our job to make care about the security of gays around the world and coming from a muslim immigrant family myself i personally know how hard it is however i find it hard to believe that these people really care about the security of gays around the world, i believe that they have ulterior motives, why not talk about gay hindus prosecuted in india? Why is there no thread about the displacement of the Palestinian people i am sure many of them are members of the LGBTQ community i find that the majority of people who begin their sentences with "i have no issue with islam but..." really do have an issue with islam, and yes i completely agree but who is to blame here?


Few people talk about gay Hindus because India (however interesting I find it, and however much I personally read about Indian politics) is hardly as relevant to the modern world as the Middle East, with all the terrorist attacks and wars we’ve decided to start there. I’m sure there has been a thread about the Israel/Palestine crisis in the past, and you’ll be glad to know I tend to side with Palestinians and their right to nationhood.

I’m sure Islam and terrorism are over-discussed and perhaps this does have something to do with xenophobia. However, this shouldn’t negate the fact that reasonable and rational criticisms of Islam and its practice in the Muslim community do exist, and we should shy away from challenging them, because that’s the only way we can bring about change.

Just for reference: I don’t have an issue with Muslims (many of whom practice Islam peacefully, and who derive a great deal of personal satisfaction from it) but I do have an issue with Islam itself, just as I do with Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and most other major religions. I think they’re authoritarian and highly damaging in their promotion of a set moral code, deviation from which is harshly punished. I think they’re out of date and largely incompatible with modern living. I think Gods (for whose existence there is no compelling evidence) were invented in order to provide a sense of greater meaning to life (where there is none) and to condition people into behaving in a certain way, and I think religion has frequently hindered human progress. Of course I’m willing to have my ideas criticised, but hatred of Islam comes not from xenophobia but from dislike for all religions, and should not be confused for a dislike of practicing Muslims, or Christians, or Jews.

Islam does not openly preach homophobia it is mentioned a few surats and is barley focused on it is more a problem with how people interpret it and like i mentioned earlier the west has had an influence on implementing anti LGBT laws in muslim countries so i find it ironic that you now criticise us for the laws you put in place.


The Quran is the unaltered word of God, is it not? If so, I don’t see why the scarcity of its appearances really matters. I imagine UK law only states once that murder is a crime, but it’s still a crime.

And like I said, you need to distinguish the practical impact of Islam on countries’ laws (which was clearly minimal in some areas, as you pointed out) from scripture itself. As I argued, I believe the way in which people choose to interpret their religion to be entirely down to social conditions. For example, your decision to ignore the anti-gay bits of Islam isn’t rooted in scripture, but in the Western, mostly accepting culture you live in.

Okay, Imperial Westerners implemented homophobic laws where previously they did not exist. Two hundred years later, is that still an excuse to leave homophobia and intolerance unchallenged in the Middle East? Did imperialism lead to the current rise in Islamic extremism (from both guerrilla terrorist groups and governments)? I’m also not sure I can personally be held responsible for undeniable crimes of imperial Britain, France, Spain, etc, nor do I feel I should be made to incorporate their actions in to the formation of my opinions.


In conclusion i agree that yes we have a lot of problems but is starting a thread to going to fix anything ? Is criticising the religion i assume most of you barely know anything about changing anything? There are a variety of movements in the middle east and north Africa trying to change things and we have in the past few years and will continuo to do so. In the words of the prophet "if you have nothing good to say then shut the fuck up".


No thread is going to fix anything, regardless of the topic we’re discussing. But discussion is nice, and it’s important for young people to be about to do it. I’m sorry if you took offense, but I don’t think I can name a single member who will look down on you for being a Muslim, even though many take issue with the religion you’re (perfectly within your right to be) loyal to. We just ask that you accept our criticism of it. :P I’m a leftist: I believe in freedom for Palestinians, equal rights for all (including right to practice religion) and the elimination of racism in our society. However, I believe it is my job as a leftist to challenge intolerant and authoritarian ideologies where I see them and, I’m afraid, I consider Islam just that.

I’m glad there are movements for change in the Middle East- with luck they’ll be able to embrace the social liberalism and anti-authoritarian radicalism prevalent through much of the region’s history.


But does no one get it ??? Yes islam is flawed yes muslim countries are flawed but who does this effect? it effects Muslim gays! not the white guy living in America it effects no one but muslim gays so i pose the same question, what has this got to do with anyone who isnt a muslim gay? We choose to identify as muslim gays and it is our right like what is this self entitlement that the majority of white people have where they think their opinions always matters in regards to subjects that do not effect you and thats the big problem here none of you are being effected! The choices and decisions you make regarding the middle east and its barbaric backward laws effect us not you like Europeans seem to think its their job to liberate people from the chains of ignorance like no we don't want your false sympathy cause thats what this is people are using our suffering as a front for their ingrained bigotry and xenophobia simple as like 10000% has nothing to do with anyone who isnt a gay muslim if you really cared about us then for starters you'd talk to muslim gays see what you can do to help us idk donating money to a charity or just offering emotional support. 200 years later Europe is still interfering in the middle east sending down countless bombs and killing millions naturally people cling to religion as its literally all they have left and so extremists are born groups like the Taliban (a result of americas interference, shocker!!!) are made and an age of ignorance comes about trust me if Europe had never interfered with the middle east you'd find that there wouldn't be nearly so much homophobia ingrained in our societies so to have Europeans then criticise us is nothing but insulting.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby GayArabStoner » 8th May, 2017, 5:19 pm

GayArabStoner wrote:
JonathanT88 wrote:
GayArabStoner wrote:I stand by what i said non muslims don't have a say as they where not brought up in a muslim environment and our experiences are completely different.


Experience doesn’t give you a monopoly over criticism, I’m afraid. Experience can also cloud people’s judgements on certain things, where (like I said) non-Muslims might be capable of criticising the religion more objectively. We may not know exactly what it feels like to be a Muslim, but that doesn’t mean we can’t assess the evidence and come to a reasoned conclusion. Also, you may be a Muslim but I'm sure you don't have experience of life in every Muslim country we're mentioning in this thread (Iraq? Syria). The Arab world is very diverse and conditions very across it, and I doubt any Muslim is able to adequately explain it all with their 'experience.'

Also, Islamic scripture and the interpretation of that is totally different from the ‘muslim environment and [y]our experiences.” One refers to a text anyone can access, the other refers to the practical manifestation of its ideas in society which, I concede, Muslims are likely to be more knowledgeable about. (Though not in all cases- a white Islamic scholar will know more than your typical Muslims due to a broad overview, access to various pieces of evidence, etc.)

And the Quran is open to interpretation if i choose to accept some parts and not others thats my business and so identifying as a gay muslim is permissible and many do.


Permissable and something I have no problem with if it provides you with comfort and a sense of community, but something which is at odds with scripture (and I think it’s dishonest not to admit this).

i do agree with you there, it is our job to make care about the security of gays around the world and coming from a muslim immigrant family myself i personally know how hard it is however i find it hard to believe that these people really care about the security of gays around the world, i believe that they have ulterior motives, why not talk about gay hindus prosecuted in india? Why is there no thread about the displacement of the Palestinian people i am sure many of them are members of the LGBTQ community i find that the majority of people who begin their sentences with "i have no issue with islam but..." really do have an issue with islam, and yes i completely agree but who is to blame here?


Few people talk about gay Hindus because India (however interesting I find it, and however much I personally read about Indian politics) is hardly as relevant to the modern world as the Middle East, with all the terrorist attacks and wars we’ve decided to start there. I’m sure there has been a thread about the Israel/Palestine crisis in the past, and you’ll be glad to know I tend to side with Palestinians and their right to nationhood.

I’m sure Islam and terrorism are over-discussed and perhaps this does have something to do with xenophobia. However, this shouldn’t negate the fact that reasonable and rational criticisms of Islam and its practice in the Muslim community do exist, and we should shy away from challenging them, because that’s the only way we can bring about change.

Just for reference: I don’t have an issue with Muslims (many of whom practice Islam peacefully, and who derive a great deal of personal satisfaction from it) but I do have an issue with Islam itself, just as I do with Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and most other major religions. I think they’re authoritarian and highly damaging in their promotion of a set moral code, deviation from which is harshly punished. I think they’re out of date and largely incompatible with modern living. I think Gods (for whose existence there is no compelling evidence) were invented in order to provide a sense of greater meaning to life (where there is none) and to condition people into behaving in a certain way, and I think religion has frequently hindered human progress. Of course I’m willing to have my ideas criticised, but hatred of Islam comes not from xenophobia but from dislike for all religions, and should not be confused for a dislike of practicing Muslims, or Christians, or Jews.

Islam does not openly preach homophobia it is mentioned a few surats and is barley focused on it is more a problem with how people interpret it and like i mentioned earlier the west has had an influence on implementing anti LGBT laws in muslim countries so i find it ironic that you now criticise us for the laws you put in place.


The Quran is the unaltered word of God, is it not? If so, I don’t see why the scarcity of its appearances really matters. I imagine UK law only states once that murder is a crime, but it’s still a crime.

And like I said, you need to distinguish the practical impact of Islam on countries’ laws (which was clearly minimal in some areas, as you pointed out) from scripture itself. As I argued, I believe the way in which people choose to interpret their religion to be entirely down to social conditions. For example, your decision to ignore the anti-gay bits of Islam isn’t rooted in scripture, but in the Western, mostly accepting culture you live in.

Okay, Imperial Westerners implemented homophobic laws where previously they did not exist. Two hundred years later, is that still an excuse to leave homophobia and intolerance unchallenged in the Middle East? Did imperialism lead to the current rise in Islamic extremism (from both guerrilla terrorist groups and governments)? I’m also not sure I can personally be held responsible for undeniable crimes of imperial Britain, France, Spain, etc, nor do I feel I should be made to incorporate their actions in to the formation of my opinions.


In conclusion i agree that yes we have a lot of problems but is starting a thread to going to fix anything ? Is criticising the religion i assume most of you barely know anything about changing anything? There are a variety of movements in the middle east and north Africa trying to change things and we have in the past few years and will continuo to do so. In the words of the prophet "if you have nothing good to say then shut the fuck up".


No thread is going to fix anything, regardless of the topic we’re discussing. But discussion is nice, and it’s important for young people to be about to do it. I’m sorry if you took offense, but I don’t think I can name a single member who will look down on you for being a Muslim, even though many take issue with the religion you’re (perfectly within your right to be) loyal to. We just ask that you accept our criticism of it. :P I’m a leftist: I believe in freedom for Palestinians, equal rights for all (including right to practice religion) and the elimination of racism in our society. However, I believe it is my job as a leftist to challenge intolerant and authoritarian ideologies where I see them and, I’m afraid, I consider Islam just that.

I’m glad there are movements for change in the Middle East- with luck they’ll be able to embrace the social liberalism and anti-authoritarian radicalism prevalent through much of the region’s history.


But does no one get it ??? Yes islam is flawed yes muslim countries are flawed but who does this effect? it effects Muslim gays! not the white guy living in America it effects no one but muslim gays so i pose the same question, what has this got to do with anyone who isnt a muslim gay? We choose to identify as muslim gays and it is our right like what is this self entitlement that the majority of white people have where they think their opinions always matters in regards to subjects that do not effect you and thats the big problem here none of you are being effected! The choices and decisions you make regarding the middle east and its barbaric backward laws effect us not you like Europeans seem to think its their job to liberate people from the chains of ignorance like no we don't want your false sympathy cause thats what this is people are using our suffering as a front for their ingrained bigotry and xenophobia simple as like 10000% has nothing to do with anyone who isnt a gay muslim if you really cared about us then for starters you'd talk to muslim gays see what you can do to help us idk donating money to a charity or just offering emotional support. 200 years later Europe is still interfering in the middle east sending down countless bombs and killing millions naturally people cling to religion as its literally all they have left and so extremists are born groups like the Taliban (a result of americas interference, shocker!!!) are made and an age of ignorance comes about trust me if Europe had never interfered with the middle east you'd find that there wouldn't be nearly so much homophobia ingrained in our societies so to have Europeans then criticise us is nothing but insulting. Jonathan i rate you as you're the only respectful intellectual on this thread and i agree with you on many points but i still stand with what i said earlier if you are not a muslim you really shouldn't be commenting on this as it does not effect you and it is literally 0% your business you'll find the majority if not all Muslim gays will agree with me the fact that most of you are from countries that have resulted in an increase in terrorism in the middle east is just rubbing salt into the wound you may think its your god given right to criticise everything and everyone but for once sit the fuck down just look at what happened when your countries tried to "help"
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Pity » 8th May, 2017, 5:36 pm

GayArabStoner wrote:what has this got to do with anyone who isnt a muslim gay?


Americans and Europeans affected by terrorism. Atheist Middle Easterners. Raped Middle Eastern women. Women in general. Political dissidents. Alcohol drinkers. I understand this particular point was about homophobia, but I think it applies globally.

GayArabStoner wrote:Europeans seem to think its their job to liberate people from the chains of ignorance


Thanks to the internet and its plethora of information, it is much easier to "liberate people from the chains of ignorance" and expose the nasty truths of inconvenient topics, Islam, unfortunately, included. I think the multiple slaughtered, Middle Eastern atheist bloggers would have agreed.

Are chained people supposed to "liberate" themselves?

GayArabStoner wrote:200 years later Europe is still interfering in the middle east sending down countless bombs and killing millions


100% agree.

GayArabStoner wrote:if Europe had never interfered with the middle east you'd find that there wouldn't be nearly so much homophobia ingrained in our societies


The culture of the Middle East has almost always been homophobic. Islam, being the most violent of modern religions, dictates the culture in most, if not all, Muslim-majority countries.
GayArabStoner wrote:sit the fuck down just look at what happened when your countries tried to "help"


Many of us who oppose military intervention are also critical of Islam and Middle Eastern culture. They are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby GayArabStoner » 8th May, 2017, 5:52 pm

Pity wrote:
GayArabStoner wrote:what has this got to do with anyone who isnt a muslim gay?


Americans and Europeans affected by terrorism. Atheist Middle Easterners. Raped Middle Eastern women. Women in general. Political dissidents. Alcohol drinkers. I understand this particular point was about homophobia, but I think it applies globally.

GayArabStoner wrote:Europeans seem to think its their job to liberate people from the chains of ignorance


Thanks to the internet and its plethora of information, it is much easier to "liberate people from the chains of ignorance" and expose the nasty truths of inconvenient topics, Islam, unfortunately, included. I think the multiple slaughtered, Middle Eastern atheist bloggers would have agreed.

Are chained people supposed to "liberate" themselves?

GayArabStoner wrote:200 years later Europe is still interfering in the middle east sending down countless bombs and killing millions


100% agree.

GayArabStoner wrote:if Europe had never interfered with the middle east you'd find that there wouldn't be nearly so much homophobia ingrained in our societies


The culture of the Middle East has almost always been homophobic. Islam, being the most violent of modern religions, dictates the culture in most, if not all, Muslim-majority countries.
GayArabStoner wrote:sit the fuck down just look at what happened when your countries tried to "help"


Many of us who oppose military intervention are also critical of Islam and Middle Eastern culture. They are not mutually exclusive.


not going to dignify your ignorance with an explanation as to why everything you just said is incorrect google is a thing wikipedia is a thing and you should really use it and do some extensive research
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 8th May, 2017, 6:02 pm

Pity wrote:The culture of the Middle East has almost always been homophobic. Islam, being the most violent of modern religions, dictates the culture in most, if not all, Muslim-majority countries.


Ehhh... wrong.

Medieval Europeans (who burnt gays from time to time) used to look down on Muslims for what they perceived as 'degenerate' homosexual behaviour. The Ottoman Empire only introduced anti-gay laws (where beforehand it was legal and tolerated) under European colonial pressure, and that was in the fairly recent 19th Century. Christians have consistently been just as dictatorial and oppressive as Muslims, if not more so, and modern research suggests there was a booming progressive, radical tradition in Muslim countries.

GayArabStoner wrote:


So essentially what you're saying is that:
1) Violence exists in Islamic countries but this is primarily due to Western intervention (something I wholeheartedly agree with)
2) Westerners should not be allowed to criticise that violence because we are partially/primarily responsible for it (something I wholeheartedly disagree with).

Commenting on things which don't directly effect you is what always happens in political/theological/anything else discussions. That's how they work. I think it's very dangerous to stipulate that you have to be involved in something to talk about it. After all, some of the greatest socialists have been middle class (e.g Clement Atlee), just as anti-gay laws wouldn't have been revoked had it not been for the concern and principles of heterosexuals. Sometimes, systems of oppression have to be broken from outside. It may be better to inform our actions on the feelings and opinions of Muslims themselves (in fact, this is definitely the case), but to argue that white people can't make judgements about Muslim issues is to deny the world a wealth of insightful analysis and commentary, where many of the Muslims effected are not in a position to do so, or are not aware of the problems in their society (you being one of many exceptions to this, of course).

The West may be responsible for the surge in violence and conservatism, but I (and other members of this forum) are not. There is no hypocrisy in our criticism of certain attitudes because we have done nothing nothing personally to contribute towards them. Sometimes people do fail to see the roots of the problem and can become hypocritical as a result, but this by no means applies to all and you should reject every single white persons' criticism because of governmental actions. Moreover, while I believe it's more important to look at these roots (interventionism, imperialism, etc.) you can't help but tackle the consequences and present issues (terrorism, social conservatism, bigotry) head on. The truth is, terrorism does effect us, and it's only natural to worry about Muslim Europeans/Americans who do have to deal with the conservatism of their community. Your suggestion that these are 'Musli m issues' ignores the fact that they have a very real impact on members of our society. So long as there are Muslims in Britain and America, these will be British and American issues.

Lastly, the thread wasn't created to criticise Muslims and how they live their lives, but Islamic scripture. Those things are distinct- one is an ideology, the other is a lifestyle choice guided by ideology. While I can see why you might be offended by people telling you how to live your life, we are perfectly within our rights to criticise a belief set- one which is, in places, violent and bigoted.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Pity » 8th May, 2017, 6:22 pm

JonathanT88 wrote:
Pity wrote:The culture of the Middle East has almost always been homophobic. Islam, being the most violent of modern religions, dictates the culture in most, if not all, Muslim-majority countries.


Ehhh... wrong.

Medieval Europeans (who burnt gays from time to time) used to look down on Muslims for what they perceived as 'degenerate' homosexual behaviour. The Ottoman Empire only introduced anti-gay laws (where beforehand it was legal and tolerated) under European colonial pressure, and that was in the 19th Century. Christians have consistently been just as dictatorial and oppressive as Muslims, if not more so and modern research suggests there was a booming progressive, radical tradition in Muslim countries.

I don't agree with GayArabStoner, but you're blatantly wrong here Pity.


Pity wrote:modern


Also, the direct, horrifying effects of Christianity subsided centuries ago.
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Re: Islamic Thread

Unread postby Kaspar » 8th May, 2017, 6:28 pm

I completely agree with Jon on that matter and would like to once again emphasize the fact that we do not claim problem with homophobia is exclusive to Islam. This is a thread about Islam, so naturally it will be looked at in relation with Islam, but as I mentioned in a post earlier, homophobia is not only a problem that exists exclusively in Islam. In fact, it is a problem almost everywhere in the world, besides the west. First example from my own sandbox, about half of the people in my country find the idea of gays either disgusting or claim it should be illegal, some say gays should be killed (!) or thrown out. And that is in a country in Europe, where 90% are Catholics.

We do not claim our societies are perfect. In fact they are the very far from it.

GayArabStoner wrote:but i still stand with what i said earlier if you are not a muslim you really shouldn't be commenting on this as it does not effect you and it is literally 0% your business you'll find the majority if not all Muslim gays will agree with me the fact that most of you are from countries that have resulted in an increase in terrorism in the middle east is just rubbing salt into the wound you may think its your god given right to criticise everything and everyone but for once sit the fuck down just look at what happened when your countries tried to "help"


Why shouldn't we have the right to discuss and talk about issues even if they don't regard to us personally? I don't see they reason why not. It's just a discussion.
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