Veganism/Oppression of Animals (merged)

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Veganism/Oppression of Animals (merged)

Unread postby bettasnail » 10th December, 2016, 7:09 pm

I'm a vegan for environmental reasons. I believe that in boycotting the animal industry, I am saving water, reducing methane and carbon dioxide emissions, and decreasing the overall amount of land used for agriculture.

Cows dump a lot of waste, which then releases CH4 and CO2, and often leaks into water supplies, causing pollution. Additionally, it takes more water and land to grow corn or soy for a cow (to then feed a person) than it would if you fed that person the original soy or corn. It's inefficient to eat animals.

That's my sole justification for being vegan. Yes, it's cruel to abuse animals in factory farms. Yes, it's better for your health than the traditional American diet. But I think that the environmental devastation caused by the animal industry is far more pressing.

That's not to say I'm against non-vegans. I see the value of small farms and raising your own animals. I see the value in eating a locally-based, whole-food omnivorous diet for your health. I don't think that veganism is the only way out. I just happen to think it's the easiest one. It's the cheapest, too, if you avoid processed foods and stick to staples like beans, rice, and cabbage (and other foods, of course; those are just examples).

However, I've heard a lot of people say that veganism actually achieving anything is impossible, that there will never be enough vegan people out there to get the message across. The demand is just too large for the supply to ever cease--without the work of some external force, it seems.

And on the other hand, while Big Ag is pretty awful, it supplies jobs. Not very good jobs, but as someone who lives in an area with a primarily cattle-based economy, I know that it's essential to rural areas. My family is in tough times right now because no one seems to want to buy the hay we grow, and we don't have the water to grow it in the first place.

And besides, switching over to a system that doesn't use and abuse animals would be next to impossible in most developed nations. The animal industry is so deeply entwined with America's government... I can imagine it would take a lot to unravel that mess.

Veganism isn't a perfect solution, but I think it's pretty damn close.

Feel free to share your thoughts, especially if you're not vegan. I'd love to hear what your thoughts on the subject are.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby TheBrunswickian » 10th December, 2016, 7:41 pm

Eat what you want to, I don't give a shit.

But humans were biologically designed to eat meat for protein, and personally I don't think that a small handful of people "boycotting" the farming industry is going to help, especially as the industry is already under threat from issues such as a demand for lower prices that farmers cannot afford.

But still its your choice, just don't take a moral high ground
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Knope » 10th December, 2016, 8:11 pm

Choosing veganism for environmental reasons is completely understandable and respectable. I eat meat and animal products and have never really given any serious consideration to giving either up but I respect people who choose either vegetarianism or veganism. I will admit that veganism escapes me a bit sometimes, but that's usually when someone presents a moral argument for it. I'm fully aware that animals aren't always killed humanely (Tyson's a pretty big offender for example) and oftentimes harm befalls them, or they live in terrible conditions before being slaughtered, but no matter how hard I try I can never bring myself from that to 'oh no, I'm never eating honey again!' That's just the way it is for me tbh. It's almost impossible for me to feel bad while drinking some milk, and I don't think I'll ever stop because frankly aside from the environmental reasons you mentioned, doing so seems really silly and unnecessary. I have tried to cut back quite a bit on beef and eat more chicken/turkey instead. It's not very commendable seeing as it's not much of a sacrifice at all, but it's something. Not trying to trivialize your position/lifestyle btw because it's totally valid and legitimate and I sincerely do respect your view, but yeah. I will say that the whole 'there will never be enough vegan people to make much of a difference' is a pretty stupid and defeatist perspective. Good is good regardless of how marginal or seemingly unimportant it is.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Togetik » 10th December, 2016, 10:59 pm

TheBrunswickian wrote:Eat what you want to, I don't give a shit.


This, basically

My only problem with veganism is when it's uninformed (Like "I won't eat honey because it harms bees") or with the moral shaming people try to do with it. A lot of people just can't financially survive while choosing to eat vegan, and a wholly vegan society would cause environmental damage either on par to or a little worse than the mixed consumption the majority of the population currently does
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Leptis » 11th December, 2016, 1:39 am

Veganism is fine. Do whatever you want. Don't impede on others, however. Make sure to see a nutritionist occasionally, in case you are missing key supplements from your diet.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby PHMED » 11th December, 2016, 11:28 pm

I am vegan.

Many non-vegans will say to vegans that they should "leave them alone and let them be with their eating habits," but I think the reason why vegans do not stop (in most cases) is because the meat-eating habits of our society is directly affecting them. As the OP implied, eating meat doesn't just have one victim. Animal agriculture is the biggest cause of climate change, the biggest cause of deforestation, the largest cause of loss of biodiversity, the biggest cause of ocean depletion, the biggest cause of ocean dead zones, it uses land inefficiently, and overall is much less sustainable for the planet and everyone on it. More than just affecting everyone on the planet, animal agriculture takes thousands of lives a year (minus the 90 billion animals) each year. Of course there are other contributing factors but animal agriculture remains the biggest and is a problem on its own in everyone of these situations despite other factors. Animal agriculture causes more over suffering, and that includes the suffering of humans, it is not solely the environment we should be concerned about (although any reason for going vegan is respected on my end).

Eating meat and animal products is completely unnecessary, many vegan activists will tell you that humans are not omnivorous creatures and that we are 100% herbivorous; name an omnivorous species that suffers from high cholesterol, diabetes, myocardium infarctions, and cardiovascular diseases. We do not" need" protein from animals; this was a marketing scheme used by the meat industry for profitable reasons. We can get protein from many other sources, mainly that of plant-based foods. And why is it that in our society we are so concerned about protein consumption in our meals when 97% of Americans do not reach the daily fiber intake? Or the fact that 97% of Americans do not reach the daily potassium intake?

And to say that going vegan is cheap is a total lie. There are plenty of websites that put together wholesome and nutritious plant-based meals that are often times cheaper than their "meat-eating" versions. I think the problem is more so the culture and beliefs that people hold within them that keep them from moving on to a plant-based diet.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Pity » 11th December, 2016, 11:54 pm

I am not vegan because I love meat, cheese, and fish. I honestly do not lose a second of sleep whenever I chow down on a succulent sirloin steak, pink in the center. I do not cry when I see the pinkish-orange flakes of perfectly grilled Atlantic salmon. I do not wince when I warm slices of gooey, rich swiss cheese on my sandwhiches.

In addition to the excellent points by TheBrunswickian, I know animals are abused and the environment is damaged by farming, but my potential miniscule contribution is not worth it. I have no moral or health reason to become vegan.

Moreover, I only just reached normal BMI levels (mostly because I eat out much more than used to); Lord knows how skinny I am despite me shoveling down baskets of pulled pork doused with sweet barbecue sauce on a daily basis.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Togetik » 12th December, 2016, 2:27 am

PHMED wrote:Eating meat and animal products is completely unnecessary, many vegan activists will tell you that humans are not omnivorous creatures and that we are 100% herbivorous;

Well, i'm sorry to say but many vegan activists are straight up wrong..? This isn't really a scientifically sound idea

PHMED wrote:name an omnivorous species that suffers from high cholesterol, diabetes, myocardium infarctions, and cardiovascular diseases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal Here u go

PHMED wrote:We do not" need" protein from animals; this was a marketing scheme used by the meat industry for profitable reasons. We can get protein from many other sources, mainly that of plant-based foods. And why is it that in our society we are so concerned about protein consumption in our meals when 97% of Americans do not reach the daily fiber intake? Or the fact that 97% of Americans do not reach the daily potassium intake?


Well you're sort of right, I mean there's literally no chemical distinction between protein from meat and that from plants, but we do need protein? I don't think the... "meat industry" has ever denied that you can get protein from eating things that aren't meat because this is pretty much common knowledge

Also not having enough protein literally kills you because you actually need it to live? Not having enough of anything will kill you eventually, but not having enough fibre just makes your digestion weird in the short-to-mid term & not having enough potassium over a long period of time makes you tired and weak. Not having enough protein kills you a lot faster?

PHMED wrote:And to say that going vegan is cheap is a total lie. There are plenty of websites that put together wholesome and nutritious plant-based meals that are often times cheaper than their "meat-eating" versions. I think the problem is more so the culture and beliefs that people hold within them that keep them from moving on to a plant-based diet.


To get a full balanced vegan diet is generally more expensive than a mixed one, especially if you live in cities (Where a higher portion of the poor population lives). Maybe it's cheaper in the country, in areas with a lot of agriculture, but for most of the population it's either the same more more.

If it was cheaper, wouldn't most people eat vegan? Especially the poor? People aren't too stupid to not know what's less expensive, especially in a position where they have to budget themselves
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Vortex » 12th December, 2016, 5:18 am

I'm trying to eat less meat, because I dislike the factory farming industry. I'm not cutting meat out, but rather I am trying to stop eating it when I am at home as much.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Knope » 12th December, 2016, 7:20 am

Blaming our modern health woes on meat doesn't really make any sense. Our Paleolithic ancestors were hunters and gatherers; a significant portion of their diet was meat. I doubt they were dropping off rapidly from heart disease and diabetes, but instead wild animals and sickness. Even looking back more recently to e.g. the 60's, type 2 diabetes and a myriad of other problems were insignificant. Juvenile type 2 diabetes was basically unheard of. It's pretty obviously not meat that's the culprit. Sugar makes far more sense, and obviously there are other factors like people living more sedentary lifestyles.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Jacketh » 12th December, 2016, 7:47 am

TheBrunswickian wrote:But humans were biologically designed to eat meat for protein, and personally I don't think that a small handful of people "boycotting" the farming industry is going to help, especially as the industry is already under threat from issues such as a demand for lower prices that farmers cannot afford.


Were we? There are plenty of other things that can provide protein.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Lightbringer » 12th December, 2016, 8:05 am

Animal abusing has always existed in industry, but here I want to raise another issue.

You don't have to go to the extreme such as veganism. Red meat is a lot more expensive than white meat because the animals that have red meat take longer to grow up, its harder to raise them etc etc and the funny part is read meat has considerably less protein than white meat. Fish and turkey are leagues better than any read meat you can find on earth and for the most part are pure in oppose to red meat being full of bad fats and impurities in general.

People need to eat less red meat and the industry surrounding it needs to shrink. The "best" diet would be eating less meat, its true, but it really helps to eat some chicken or turkey breast a day, or fish. Red meat is useless, expensive and unhealthy. Just stop eating it. This is what I do:

For breakfast eat vegetarian, but do include animal produces such as eggs, honey and diary.

Eat meat for lunch, preferably chicken, fish or turkey. If you really cannot stay away from read meat, once a week should be ok.

For dinner, go vegan. Its the best possible dinner. Very easy on your stomach.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby nab21 » 12th December, 2016, 8:29 am

Jacketh wrote:
TheBrunswickian wrote:But humans were biologically designed to eat meat for protein, and personally I don't think that a small handful of people "boycotting" the farming industry is going to help, especially as the industry is already under threat from issues such as a demand for lower prices that farmers cannot afford.


Were we? There are plenty of other things that can provide protein.


"Protein" is not one thing. There are many forms of "protein" that humans need. The fact is that some "proteins" can be obtained from plant material, while others are best obtained from and most abundant in meat.

Humans were in fact meant to have an omnivorous diet. If we were meant to be herbivores, we'd have the ability to digest cellulose, like most (if not all) herbivores can. Heck, our body produces natural enzymes that help us digest meat. They wouldn't be there if we weren't meant to eat meat.

PHMED wrote:Eating meat and animal products is completely unnecessary, many vegan activists will tell you that humans are not omnivorous creatures and that we are 100% herbivorous; name an omnivorous species that suffers from high cholesterol, diabetes, myocardium infarctions, and cardiovascular diseases. We do not" need" protein from animals; this was a marketing scheme used by the meat industry for profitable reasons. We can get protein from many other sources, mainly that of plant-based foods. And why is it that in our society we are so concerned about protein consumption in our meals when 97% of Americans do not reach the daily fiber intake? Or the fact that 97% of Americans do not reach the daily potassium intake?


The blue bit: See above.
The green bit: This is a result of most people lacking a balanced diet (Which in my books, consists of a healthy balance of different food sources, containing different essential nutrients), as well as lack of physical activity.

Knope wrote:Blaming our modern health woes on meat doesn't really make any sense. Our Paleolithic ancestors were hunters and gatherers; a significant portion of their diet was meat. I doubt they were dropping off rapidly from heart disease and diabetes, but instead wild animals and sickness. Even looking back more recently to e.g. the 60's, type 2 diabetes and a myriad of other problems were insignificant. Juvenile type 2 diabetes was basically unheard of. It's pretty obviously not meat that's the culprit. Sugar makes far more sense, and obviously there are other factors like people living more sedentary lifestyles.


This here is an absolutely good point. In fact, an omnivorous diet, and the need to hunt played a significant role in our evolution.

I agree that the commercial production of meat is a huge strain on the environment, in fact it is the largest producer of GHG's. And I agree that a vast majority of the industry treats animals very, very horribly. However, we were in fact meant to have an omnivorous diet. It's not just some conspiracy to sell more meat to us.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Anonymous Boy » 12th December, 2016, 9:46 am

nab21 wrote:
Jacketh wrote:
TheBrunswickian wrote:But humans were biologically designed to eat meat for protein, and personally I don't think that a small handful of people "boycotting" the farming industry is going to help, especially as the industry is already under threat from issues such as a demand for lower prices that farmers cannot afford.

Were we? There are plenty of other things that can provide protein.

"Protein" is not one thing. There are many forms of "protein" that humans need. The fact is that some "proteins" can be obtained from plant material, while others are best obtained from and most abundant in meat.

That's not true, I'm afraid. What matters is that you get enough of each of the essential amino acids. All of these can be obtained in sufficient quantities from plants, not just some.

If you were a particularly boring person, you could even get them all from a single plant source, like potatoes. Or cashews. Or black beans, pistachios, soy, black-eyed peas, pumpkin seeds, chickpeas... I could go on. Any one of these could provide a person with all the amino acids they need throughout their entire life.

nab21 wrote:Humans were in fact meant to have an omnivorous diet. If we were meant to be herbivores, we'd have the ability to digest cellulose, like most (if not all) herbivores can. Heck, our body produces natural enzymes that help us digest meat. They wouldn't be there if we weren't meant to eat meat.

There's no "meant" there. It takes an intelligence to mean anything to have or do anything.

The reason we have those enzymes is one you have identified later in your post:
nab21 wrote:In fact, an omnivorous diet, and the need to hunt played a significant role in our evolution.

There's no "meaning" there, however.

nab21 wrote:
PHMED wrote:And why is it that in our society we are so concerned about protein consumption in our meals when 97% of Americans do not reach the daily fiber intake? Or the fact that 97% of Americans do not reach the daily potassium intake?

The green bit: This is a result of most people lacking a balanced diet (Which in my books, consists of a healthy balance of different food sources, containing different essential nutrients), as well as lack of physical activity.

How does lack of physical activity contribute to Americans not reaching adequate daily intake of fibre and potassium?
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby Hohenidoom » 12th December, 2016, 10:07 am

How about just buying your meat or animal products from open, free range sources ? I kept poultry for about five years, with about 40 birds. They were kept in the highest order, and hence lived a far safer, more pleas :err: ant life than in the wild. They laid because they were happy, provided us with eggs and lived quite, unstressed lives.

Whilst I can understand an opposition to battery and industrial farming, every farm I've ever been too, including the ones in or connected to my family (although I admit this is not the reality of all farms) have centred around the concept that happy animals produce good products - it's a two way relationship in effect. I see no issue with using animal products as long as those animals are living content-ish lives.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby m0nk3y » 12th December, 2016, 11:16 am

I'm in the process of, not eating meat, and have been for one month; because of how it's produced.

I eat, mainly: bread, potato, pasta and cheese; with some additional non-meat products.

It helps my mind 'up there', if you know what I mean.

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Re: Veganism

Unread postby nab21 » 12th December, 2016, 12:10 pm

Anonymous Boy wrote:That's not true, I'm afraid. What matters is that you get enough of each of the essential amino acids. All of these can be obtained in sufficient quantities from plants, not just some.

If you were a particularly boring person, you could even get them all from a single plant source, like potatoes. Or cashews. Or black beans, pistachios, soy, black-eyed peas, pumpkin seeds, chickpeas... I could go on. Any one of these could provide a person with all the amino acids they need throughout their entire life.


Well, on the contrary. The essential amino acids that humans cannot synthesize themselves are most balanced in meat and animal products. Yes, they can be found in plants, but to get the same balance of amino acids found in meat from plants, you'd have to consume a much wider variety of plant material. Saying that you can get all the required amino acids from just one plant source is just grossly misguided.
Discounting just proteins, there are certain other nutrients, such as vitamin B-12 that is hardly, if ever, obtained plant based food sources, which is why many people with largely vegetarian diets have to either obtain it through supplements or foods that are fortified with B-12.

Anonymous Boy wrote:
nab21 wrote:The green bit: This is a result of most people lacking a balanced diet (Which in my books, consists of a healthy balance of different food sources, containing different essential nutrients), as well as lack of physical activity.


How does lack of physical activity contribute to Americans not reaching adequate daily intake of fibre and potassium?


Sorry, I hadn't addressed that point in the best way possible. I meant to address two points at once.

What I meant to say was that a lack of a balanced diet is the reason behind the inadequate intake of fibre and potassium, while increased coronary heart disease, diabetes and obesity can be attributed to a lack of physical activity, and increased consumption of sugar, and a diet high in unhealthy fats.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby PHMED » 12th December, 2016, 1:29 pm

Togetik wrote:Well, i'm sorry to say but many vegan activists are straight up wrong..? This isn't really a scientifically sound idea

There is plenty of scientific evidence:
*The pH of an herbivores saliva is around 7 and humans saliva has a pH of 7.4; carnivores have considerably lower pH (acidic) in their saliva to break down meat at the onset of digestion.
*Herbivores sweat through pores (like humans), not through paws and nor do they pant like carnivores.
*Herbivores can move their teeth side-to-side (humans can do this) when while carnivores can only move their teeth up and down.

And just because the majority of humans choose to have omnivorous tendencies, it doesn't mean that are omnivorous by nature.

Togetik wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal Here u go


I'm not reading all of this. Please show me a quote that suggests omnivores (other than humans) suffer from the diseases we face as a species.

Togetik wrote:Well you're sort of right, I mean there's literally no chemical distinction between protein from meat and that from plants, but we do need protein? I don't think the... "meat industry" has ever denied that you can get protein from eating things that aren't meat because this is pretty much common knowledge.

Dude, just because the meat industry does not deny this doesn't mean they are not for profit or come up with marketing strategies for people to consume their products. They are WELL aware of the fact that their are other sources of protein, but they try VERY hard for the general public not to know this. It may be obvious to you, but plenty of people believe that cutting out meat in their diets will result in a loss of protein. Where do you think this idea came from? The media! When we talk about media tactics to sway the general public such as repeated affirmations, in this case the need of meat for protein consumption, then of course people will believe this.

Togetik wrote:Also not having enough protein literally kills you because you actually need it to live? Not having enough of anything will kill you eventually, but not having enough fibre just makes your digestion weird in the short-to-mid term & not having enough potassium over a long period of time makes you tired and weak. Not having enough protein kills you a lot faster?


Uhm, excuse me? Even moderate potassium deficiency—that which occurs prior to hypokalemia—can cause increases in blood pressure and bone loss and put someone at risk for calcium-containing kidney stones, which can most certainly lead to death.

A lack of fiber contributes to more than just a decrease in digestion; it can lead to colon cancer and obesity. Also, fiber is essential for maintaining cholesterol levels, why do you think doctors recommend their patients with high cholesterol to eat oatmeal?

That is a silly argument on your end.

Togetik wrote:To get a full balanced vegan diet is generally more expensive than a mixed one, especially if you live in cities (Where a higher portion of the poor population lives). Maybe it's cheaper in the country, in areas with a lot of agriculture, but for most of the population it's either the same more more.

Getting a balanced diet from vegan foods IS cheaper because plants (which are literally the cheapest items in the grocery store, especially compared to that of meat) contain most of the essential vitamins and minerals humans need to sustain themselves. I live in a big city (Westwood, CA) and I have no problems with shopping for affordable produce that is non-dairy and non-meat. You're making false claims about the pricing of wholesome, plant-based foods. If anything, the problem is the lack of accessibility to fresh foods which affects individuals living in urban areas, not big cities.

Tpgetik wrote:If it was cheaper, wouldn't most people eat vegan? Especially the poor? People aren't too stupid to not know what's less expensive, especially in a position where they have to budget themselves

This is FAR from the case. Cheaper does not necessarily mean better or more desirable in our society, especially when you bring up food choices. The CHOICE to buy meat or plant based foods stems from problems such as perceived taste, a lack of education on how to prepare vegan dishes, cultural reasons that may force people to eat meat, and simple PREFERENCES to eat meat over plant-based foods. All of these can outweigh someone's decisions to purchase meat over plant-based foods despite the obvious choice in terms of pricing.
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby PHMED » 12th December, 2016, 1:49 pm

Knope wrote:Blaming our modern health woes on meat doesn't really make any sense. Our Paleolithic ancestors were hunters and gatherers; a significant portion of their diet was meat.

We were hunter gathers only because we developed tools to help us take down animals. WE ARE NOT GENETICALLY DESIGNED TO TAKE DOWN ANIMALS. If you look at animals that ARE supposed to eat meat, they are genetically designed to do this, from their teeth, to their strength. Humans do not have the capacity to take down animals with their brute strength, nor can they chew into it. Teeth are strikingly different as well. Our canines are flattened, blunt and small, shaped like a spade and non-serrated; unlike carnivores, who have them elongated and dagger-like, which are often serrated for killing and tearing their prey. Our molars and premolars are squared and flattened, for grinding and crushing; unlike carnivores, who have them sharp, jagged and shaped like a blade. If we humans tried to kill a giraffe with our teeth, we’d sooner get kicked by the animal. Or, if we successfully snuck-up and actually tried to really bite into the live animal, it could easily result in some of our teeth falling out or our jaw dislocating.

Knope wrote:I doubt they were dropping off rapidly from heart disease and diabetes, but instead wild animals and sickness. Even looking back more recently to e.g. the 60's, type 2 diabetes and a myriad of other problems were insignificant. Juvenile type 2 diabetes was basically unheard of. It's pretty obviously not meat that's the culprit. Sugar makes far more sense, and obviously there are other factors like people living more sedentary lifestyles.

There are hundreds of studies that will show you the linkage between meat (especially red meat) and heart disease, diabetes, etc. Yes, there are other factors but meat is still a contributor which is worth arguing against.
PHMED
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Re: Veganism

Unread postby PHMED » 12th December, 2016, 2:05 pm

nab21 wrote:Well, on the contrary. The essential amino acids that humans cannot synthesize themselves are most balanced in meat and animal products. Yes, they can be found in plants, but to get the same balance of amino acids found in meat from plants, you'd have to consume a much wider variety of plant material.

This is a myth.

There has never been a case of protein deficiency ever described in the world literature on any natural diet (plant-based) that met the sufficient amount of calories! What I am trying to say here is that eating a plant-based diet that has sufficient calories does NOT require you to eat a large sum of material as you are making it out to be. In FACT, humans do not even need to eat a lot of protein and when they do, a lot of health problems sprout from it. Oh, and guess what? The only sources of protein in which we get too much of it is from MEAT. Human protein needs are such aTINY percentage of our calories (2.5-3%). If you were to eat the LOWEST protein foods in the plant world such as rice, you will consume 8-9% of protein, so no one on a plant-based diet has to eat an overload of material as you suggested.
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