#BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Dessy » 24th June, 2017, 11:00 pm

Togetik wrote:I'm kind of two minded about the police (/corporations) pride situation(s), while I get and understand why groups don't want them participating I also don't feel like gatekeeping at pride events helps anyone. Keeping police away as event goers isn't.... a protest, or anything? It's not really actively trying to promote a cause or in service of one and there's no recourse on the side of police groups or whatever for them to be able to participate in the same way as when you're protesting something.
If you're blocking a road in protest of police brutality, the police could go "Hey, sure, we should stop killing black people and then trying to cover ourselves on that. We accept this and we're going to do X things about it, is that ok?" but when you're preventing them from participating in pride on principal there's nothing like that, and no message being sent?

Feel free to pull me up on this because I know I don't have a perfect perspective on this, but from where I stand I don't really get it


What exactly is the difference between trying to send a message in protest against police brutality while blocking a street and protest against police brutality against black queers by trying to get them out of parades? Idk how can you say there's no message on the latter when you consider why groups are protesting them. Maybe it is a bit extra (I think simply not giving them a float is reasonable enough though), but it's not without purpose at all. Black/latinx queers had long been at odd with the police even to this day. To them it is an affront to "glorify" the police in queer spaces.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 24th June, 2017, 11:15 pm

Pity wrote:@Kris
1. The Brookings Institude said that, not me. I didn’t say that by not having kids, having a diploma, and having a job would solve money issues, just that it prevents you from being impoverished. If you look at how many blacks drop out and have kids before marriage, it’s not surprising that many are poor.

2. Uh, no, there have not been very good arguments made. Look at Ethan’s post above where he said institutional racism exists today in the form of police brutality even though there are close to zero facts behind that stance. I have provided sources for almost all of my points. The arguments I ignore usually consist of “Black people are poor because their great-great-great grandparents may have been slaves.” I do respond to the ones worth my times and provide factual evidence.

1. I've just told you how because of them ALREADY being poor it makes those task such as getting a diploma, not having kids out of wedlock and getting meaningful employment (A McDonald's job won't lift some one out of poverty, have you heard of the term working poor?) a significantly harder thing to achieve, hence the cycle continuously repeating itself in most cases.

2. Between Des and I there's over 100 posts in this thread feel free to actually read them and see numerous figures quoted and lengthy discussion on the issues of black people being disproportionally killed by law enforcement to which your only reply throughout the thread has been "but more white people are killed" yeah no shit they make up 90% of the population, hence the continuous emphasis on the term disproportional, even when higher crime rates are factored in. The issue of black people receiving significantly longer sentences for the same crimes committed by white criminals, the profiling that exists where more often than not a black person is deemed to be aggressive regardless of what crime they've committed (see Eric Garner selling cigarettes) or even when they haven't committed a crime at all (see Philando Castile) and how law enforcement is more likely to have a weapon drawn when attending an incident involving black people... I'd go on but as evidenced in the entirety of this thread and almost every other in ID you'll just blow it off.
TLDR Read this thread from beginning to end and then say no facts or valid arguments have been brought forward.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Dessy » 25th June, 2017, 12:00 am

Ethán wrote:
JonathanT88 wrote:I've not read much around the status of black people in America currently (apart from a few history books on civil rights and the civil war), so was wondering if anyone more knowledgeable could help me find something out. Interested in hearing both sides of the argument, if possible.

Is it possible that most of the indicators of African American disadvantage stem from relative socio-economic disadvantage, stemming from cycles of poverty existent since the end of slavery, rather than much systemic racism? How much more disadvantaged, if at all, are black Americans than white Americans with similar levels of wealth and education?

Essentially: to what extent can we distinguish the effects of racism from black people's economic disadvantage?

Good question. I'm no expert on the matter myself so I'll leave it to Des but I personally think its a case of the former, the socio-economic disadvantage caused by historical racism has resulted in the current status of African Americans and that current systemic racism is minimal however, not completely eradicated e.g. high rates of police brutality against black males.


I'm not really that well versed here either, this is something that is complex and still being discussed.

However with what Ethan said, there is a lot of historical racism to consider. At this point in time we seen a lot of problems caused directly by the United States of America and its institutions against many minorities groups including black folks in the 20th century. Some as recent as Nixon's presidency with the admittance that the war on drugs during his era was nothing more than a plot to target black neighborhoods. That was like 40 years ago? To think that black folks can recover from just that so easily is kind of being a bit ignorant imo. I mean even consider that 20 years ago President Clinton and Congress passed a law that would end up doing more harm to minorities because they wanted to get "hard on crime". Granted not all black folks were affected, and you could say some even deserve jail time since they did technically broke the law (assuming they weren't planted). I suppose you can blame that on socio-economic disadvantages but to me that's like being the mouse who's being led to cheese.

Of course there are problem areas where racism looks not to be a main factor, such as the complex mess that is Chicago's South Side. You can't really pin racism on there although there's history for every major city if we're being honest. Such is a result of severe poverty. Schools closing, guns out of control, kids in middle school joining gangs, cops having low number of folks, death shows up on the local news nearly every night, some innocent mother or son killed by some gangbanger or vengeful human. But often stuff like this been the target of 'outside' racism. Stuff like Trump's rhetoric on the "inner cities" and some people thinking black folks are only focusing on police brutality, despite black folks being out there on the streets of Chicago protesting the violence, schools closings and a whole other shit. They been doing this for at least a decade and people have the nerve to critique black Chicagoans?

I also thought of the "White Flight" of the 20th century. Basically what it is, white folks moving out of neighborhoods or even entire cities to somewhere else, typically because of a growing population of minorities. The attitude of "not in my neighborhood!" was still very persistent then. It happened to a city near me, Gary, where most of my family grew up and was born. Basically even when the Jackson 5 was there and getting started, there was a lot of white folks. And this was like late 60s/early 70s. The thing you have to understand here is that black folks are barely a hundred year removed from the end of slavery; only merely a few years since Jim Crow laws, segregation, the KKK, etc. You cannot expect black folks as a whole to gain enough wealth to manage even entire cities on their own. Hell we to this day still rely on white congresspeople to represent us even when we have a minority-majority population. So all the wealth, some businesses, and education were centered among white folks, mostly the middle class and up. So when these white folks left to the suburbs to get away, they took all their wealth with them. Black folks couldn't keep up with the pace of closing businesses, they lack money to fund stuff, so poorer neighborhoods suffered. And of course, there were even lower class white folks left behind but obviously they suffered as a result as well. So yeah I guess there is some sort of level ground across many low-income folks but at the end of the day, America was and is racist. Police still targeted black folks more, governmental policies and institution at all levels would still harm black folks more, and there's no wealth to be circulated because it left. Not that they haven't managed before but this effect was really coupled by the decline of the Steel Mill in the late 70s.
In case you're wondering where it went, Crown Point. City is majority white, and is considered the "center" of the county. Keep in mind that Gary was once considered for Indiana's capital and served at THE stop you'd go to if you're heading to or from Chicago. Now it's the place you avoid, unless you know where you going. Crown Point isn't really that central because it's a bit off from the interstate but my hometown is and we managed well with a black majority population but I can't help but feel that's due to more ceasing racism over time and being a shopping spot intersecting 2 highways.

So really it's a mixture of all three of those issues you asked, Jonathan, especially depending on where. This country is big and not all areas are nearly equal. So socio-economic situation might be more of a cause in an area like Chicago than in Gary, which is more systemic racism. The stemming effect of slavery would probably be seen in more of the South.

And looking onto similar level of wealth/education. I think the playing field level out as the wealth increases. Mid/upper middle class black folks would definitely encounter more opportunities, and probably less racism depending on where they are. But a lot of people are stuck at the poverty line or stuck in the working poor class. We only have like 3 or 4 black billionaire out of like 600 in America. That's not a lot of people to give the wealth back to. By numbers alone the distribution is still very uneven.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Togetik » 25th June, 2017, 8:27 am

Dessy wrote:What exactly is the difference between trying to send a message in protest against police brutality while blocking a street and protest against police brutality against black queers by trying to get them out of parades? Idk how can you say there's no message on the latter when you consider why groups are protesting them. Maybe it is a bit extra (I think simply not giving them a float is reasonable enough though), but it's not without purpose at all. Black/latinx queers had long been at odd with the police even to this day. To them it is an affront to "glorify" the police in queer spaces.


Yeah, I think i understand it better now. I still feel like there is a difference in that it's an attempt to block a direct positive attempt to counteract historic brutality through solidarity in pride, in protest of historic brutality? I get that it's a complicated issue, and I think I agree on how it could be seen as glorifying. I guess I can't really have the same perspective on it as older people who lived through the era of (more? Widespread? Institutional?) direct brutality
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Kaspar » 25th June, 2017, 11:33 am

Pity wrote:@Kris
1. The Brookings Institude said that, not me. I didn’t say that by not having kids, having a diploma, and having a job would solve money issues, just that it prevents you from being impoverished. If you look at how many blacks drop out and have kids before marriage, it’s not surprising that many are poor.


I didn't want to join this discussion, but I will to once again say one thing, that has been already said over and over.

CAUSE -> CONSEQUENCE


There were huge amounts of racism in the earlier centuries, it wasn't even called that way, the statement that one race is superior to other was common sense at the time. This shaped the history, communities, whole countries and nations we see now.
Black people are not poorer, more likely to commit crimes and scoring lower in education because they don't care nor because they are less inteligent.
The main factor that shapes you throughout your whole life is community and environment you live in. Progress gives birth to more progress. Poverty gives birth to more poverty. For centuries, black people did not experience progress and prosperity, as Europeans did. Now things have changed but the echo of that keeps showing up. You cannot just say that black people should stop committing crimes and go to school, not have children young etc. Because lots of them are still living in poverty, without the proper help from the outside, they won't be able to get out of it. If black people had the same environment and lived identically as white people, they wouldn't drop out of school more often, they wouldn't have children at a younger age.
So this: "If you look at how many blacks drop out and have kids before marriage, it’s not surprising that many are poor." is simply not true. They are not poor now, because they do all these things, but quite the opposite! They were poor, that's why they do these things more often now. You are mixing the two.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 25th June, 2017, 1:22 pm

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 25th June, 2017, 1:47 pm

Pity wrote:3. You are providing no statistics or studies to back up your points. You can't just say that I have white privilege just because people don't take the initiative to finish high school and close their legs. You have zero evidence that there is institutional racism happening to opress minorities.

Ironically, by making this statement you prove your privilege. The fact that you can make the assumption that a minority living in poverty can "take initiative' and finish high school or avoid pregnancy just as easily as you can, without any other factors hindering them shows clear ignorance.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Togetik » 25th June, 2017, 1:48 pm

Are we really going to turn this into a "black people have poverty/crime/dumb genes" thread, pity
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 25th June, 2017, 1:57 pm

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 25th June, 2017, 2:03 pm

Pity wrote:2. No, socioeconomic factors are not the "main" reason. While, yes, poverty and income equality can be indicative of crime rates, I found that they are roughly only 50-55%. This is by no means close to 100% and I fail to see why this point matters in terms of "white privilege."
https://academic.oup.com/socpro/article ... m=fulltext
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10. ... 7911406397
http://search.proquest.com/openview/855 ... e=gscholar


Rather amusingly, Pity, two of the links contradicts your argument entirely, and all of them are in some way unrelated. You can't selectively read (or not read, it seems) a few studies, post them to make your argument seem substantiated and expect us not to see through the bullshit.

The first article considers only the link between unemployment and crime, rather than looking at general socio-economic factors, and so doesn't really back up your argument. Even then, it concludes that, where the link between unemployment and crime has previously been dismissed, this has been done incorrectly; the study, therefore, contradicts your ideas about socioeconomic factors.

The second study is an academic critique of past research (which I cannot comment on because you haven't provided it) but concluded "Latin American regional dummy variables, income inequality indicators and the Decommodification Indexrefers, I think, to relative dependency on markets/welfare and is thus a socio-economic indicator" have the strongest effect on homicide (NB: not crime in general, and is thus a terrible study to have chosen) rates. Not only is this a study with a weak link to your argument (overall crime rates) but one which totally contradicts what you're trying to say.

The last study does not dispute the role of socio-economic factors, but rather seeks to account for discrepancies between past studies of the factor; it, like all the other studies you've linked, does nothing to back up your argument.

So where does this 50-55% figure come from? Have you pulled it out your arse? It certainly seems that way to me. You wax lyrical about the necessity of providing studies, only to provide tiny sections from three (such that I have little idea of what they're trying to say), all of which seem either unrelated (1 and 3) and/or totally contradictory (1 and 2) to your argument. Please try harder.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 25th June, 2017, 2:15 pm

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 25th June, 2017, 3:06 pm

Pity wrote:I didn't include it to try to claim unemployment doesn't lead to crime. It is there to show that it isn't the end-all be-all.


Nobody's arguing unemployment alone determines crime so I'm not really sure why you included the link, and the study (as I said) argues, if anything, that unemployment is a bigger deal than people have previously thought. That said, it's hard to comment on such a limited excerpt.

"measures of economic development" is included as weak measurements.


The study refers to the difficulty in accounting for differing crime rates across countries. Income inequality indicators refers to the relative deprivation of individual people (which is really what we're talking about on this thread); "measures of economic development" refers to the condition of the nation as a whole (which is not what we've been talking about. Measures of economic development include things like GNP per capita, population growth, occupational structures of the labour force, urbanisation, consumption per capita, infrastructure, etc. I took that straight from google, and I'm sure you can have a look yourself.

The TINY SECTION I'm able to read, therefore, seems to suggest personal poverty (expressed here in terms of a nation's inequality) matters more than the economic conditions of the nation as a whole, which isn't something anyone on this thread has tried to argue. In actual fact, income inequality is greater for blacks than whites, and so the study (as I said previously) does back up my (and others') arguments.

Economic development does not mean what you think it does.


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Sorry, but an excel spreadsheet posted without reference isn't enough to convince me of your argument, nor is it really an answer to my question. From what empirical evidence have these conclusions been drawn? What do the percentages actually indicates (percentage of what?)- my knowledge of statistics isn't great, but putting a percentage value on a positive/negative association is ludicrous when you've not indicated where the data came from/how it was processed.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 25th June, 2017, 6:24 pm

The screenshots were from the article along with the sources on different points, so I trust them despite it being a paywall.
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