#BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Leptis » 6th January, 2017, 10:20 pm

Can we not turn this into a pissing contest? One whom inflicts suffering, misery and pain upon anybody, regardless of who you are, makes them a reprehensible human being.

There is no purpose by turning this into a confrontational matter.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 7th January, 2017, 3:09 am

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Example » 21st January, 2017, 4:27 am

What do you guys think of police floats and booths being banned from Toronto pride to meet the blm protesters demands xoxo

I wonder how many insane people are reading the articles and thinking ''now is my chance to shoot the fuck out of all those LGBT+
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 21st January, 2017, 6:30 am

Example wrote:What do you guys think of police floats and booths being banned from Toronto pride to meet the blm protesters demands xoxo

I wonder how many insane people are reading the articles and thinking ''now is my chance to shoot the fuck out of all those LGBT+


I think that if a group of individuals want to express support for the gay community, they should be allowed to do so. The police aren't a unified and awful enemy, and to deny them the right to a float is petty and unfair.

Also, what jurisdiction does BLM have an issue which directly affects the gay commumity?
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Dessy » 21st January, 2017, 7:24 am

JonathanT88 wrote:
Example wrote:What do you guys think of police floats and booths being banned from Toronto pride to meet the blm protesters demands xoxo

I wonder how many insane people are reading the articles and thinking ''now is my chance to shoot the fuck out of all those LGBT+


I think that if a group of individuals want to express support for the gay community, they should be allowed to do so. The police aren't a unified and awful enemy, and to deny them the right to a float is petty and unfair.

Also, what jurisdiction does BLM have an issue which directly affects the gay commumity?


Considering that there's a history of police brutality against black queers (who was also present at Toronto), and a lot in the movement are black queers (even one of the more prominent voices is -> DeRay).

Although I personally think it was silly of them to make that demand. If they're supporting the gay community they're probably more inclined to protect them and understand how they need protecting. The all cops are bad thought-line just doesn't work, especially in a country with less of an issue with it.

I think more black queers at least, are becoming aware of how to filter out police allies after learning of the sacrifice of two cops who helped out during the Orlando attack and a couple other incidents involving cops stepping in to curb violent homophobia. But some of the older folks have an uncomfortable history with the police thanks to the intersection of both their race and sexuality/identity so they're automatically on the defensive or on that thoughtline I mentioned above.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 21st January, 2017, 8:23 am

Dessy wrote:Considering that there's a history of police brutality against black queers (who was also present at Toronto), and a lot in the movement are black queers (even one of the more prominent voices is -> DeRay)..... But some of the older folks have an uncomfortable history with the police thanks to the intersection of both their race and sexuality/identity so they're automatically on the defensive or on that thoughtline I mentioned above.


Perhaps, though surely a formerly (or even presently) hostile group coming out in support of gay people is something to be celebrated? For the old people who have a bad history with the police, their float should be a symbol of progression and public support rather than something to fear. I'd even encourage Christian/Muslim groups to come to gay pride parades, however opposed certain members of each religion are to homosexuality. Heck, we could have a Twinks4Trump stall.

I'd be interested in seeing the justification included in the demand that the police attend, but I think it's pretty silly (and I'm glad you do too).
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Example » 21st January, 2017, 7:09 pm

I was reading letters sent in by lgbt cops saying how sad they are and that they wanted to stand up and show people in the closet that they can come out and they can be cops and anything they want now
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Finch » 24th June, 2017, 6:18 am

Discourse on white privilege

pilotchase wrote:
Finch wrote:I think this is getting a little out of hand.
Pity, i don't think JT wanted to offend you or belittle white people. He was simply pointing out that because white people are granted more privileges, they'd be less prone to see the nuances of discrimination, prejudice and disparity within the LGBT+ community because many of them don't experience it firsthand.


I didn't think I was going to become involved in this but here it goes. Stating that white people are granted more privileges is just completely inaccurate. It is quite the opposite. Particularly in America, the white male is disadvantaged these days. Have you ever heard of a "white power" scholarship? Of course not because BLM and SJW's would circle jerk over that talking about KKK and black oppression. But of course there are plenty of African American, Latino, Asian, Indian, etc scholarships and internship opportunities.

White men make less money than other races. White men are less prevalent in lucrative careers (by ratio) than other races.

I'm trying to stay objective here with just facts, but Pity is dead right.


So we're not allowed to discuss this issue in the LGBT+ thread, but because I'm petty, I'm taking the discussion here after discussing where to put this post with house cup hosts. While white privilege isn't exclusively a BLM discussion, I thought it was important to address it nonetheless (mostly because I'm petty).

So Pilotchase's conclusion would perhaps be a reasonable one to come to on a basis on inductive reasoning with premises of minimal reliability, accuracy and generalisability. It's true that white men do not have a scholarships exclusively made for them on the basis of race and gender. However, it should be noted that equity programs, are as their name suggests, implemented with the intention of evening the playing field. Indeed, I've not heard of a "White Power" scholarship, for very good reasons.

According to Professor Thomas J. Espenshade, professor of sociology at Princeton University found that Asian-Americans had to score 140 points higher on their SATs than whites to gain admission into the same universities. This phenomenon is not limited to the US, either.

White teenagers are significantly over-represented at several of the prestigious institutions in the UK, where black students are significantly under-represented. White students are nine times more likely than black students to be admitted to the University of Edinburgh, and four times more likely to go to Newcastle University.

Don't even start with the KKK and black oppression. I find it ironic that white people are using the KKK and black oppression as a defense against those seeking equality. In effect, this is saying:
"So what if we enslaved a portion of a race and oppressed them?"
"So what if we hung them on trees after skinning them because it was easy to get away with?"
While it's entirely reasonable to expect to not be put at a disadvantage simply because of the actions of one's forefathers, it's completely different to deny moves towards equality by dismissing the impacts of the oppression of their race.

According to The Bureau of Labour Statistics, Black men earned 73% of white men's hourly earnings in 2015, so yeah, white men do earn more than black men. Oh and who've had thought-only 9 percent of the biggest companies in the U.S. have CEOs who are not white men. I guess it's totally okay to say that white men are less prevalent in lucrative jobs than other groups as if it were objective fact *cough*alternative facts*cough*.

But you know, I'm trying to stay objective here with just facts.
I finally found something to put here!

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Dessy » 24th June, 2017, 8:18 am

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Somehow white men are the most disadvantaged in America.

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There are scholarships and internships for minorities, as Finch said they're made to level the playing field. But they're not really plentiful as you would believe. Many of these scholarships still require merit or demonstrating abilities as other scholarships would. But what if you're a poor white man? Well there are also scholarships toward low-income folks and odds are you're more likely to get those by shear population, more-so if the scholarship is based in your general area. The truth is, in general white men already have the backings of institutions and finances, blacks and latinos don't have that.

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Other visual stats:
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You get the point.
Black and Hispanics don't have as much advantages in society, and those don't just switch places just because we get racial-based scholarships or internships. They barely make a dent- considering you still have to do well to get them and they do nothing in regard to fixing the problems with K-12 education in America that would lead to even more disadvantaged minorities.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Togetik » 24th June, 2017, 2:28 pm

I scrolled down to see a load of graphs with the word "black" on them and nearly had a stroke thinking Pity was back at it again, but yeah the whole idea is "equity" rather than "equality". Equality means everyone is given equal opportunity, which sounds good on paper but just doesn't work when you've got people starting from a place that's worse off.

There's a lot of pictures explaining the concept with like, groups of children being given the same size boxes to stand on so they can reach things or look over fences or whatever & showing how the shorter ones are still disadvantaged even though they've got the same sized box as everyone else.


I'm kind of two minded about the police (/corporations) pride situation(s), while I get and understand why groups don't want them participating I also don't feel like gatekeeping at pride events helps anyone. Keeping police away as event goers isn't.... a protest, or anything? It's not really actively trying to promote a cause or in service of one and there's no recourse on the side of police groups or whatever for them to be able to participate in the same way as when you're protesting something.
If you're blocking a road in protest of police brutality, the police could go "Hey, sure, we should stop killing black people and then trying to cover ourselves on that. We accept this and we're going to do X things about it, is that ok?" but when you're preventing them from participating in pride on principal there's nothing like that, and no message being sent?

Feel free to pull me up on this because I know I don't have a perfect perspective on this, but from where I stand I don't really get it
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 24th June, 2017, 2:41 pm

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Togetik » 24th June, 2017, 3:44 pm

Yeah, victims of inter-generational discrimination and poverty should just take more responsibility for their lives. You'd think they'd have thought of that by now, but I guess it's those dastardly minorities back at it again
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 24th June, 2017, 4:10 pm

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 24th June, 2017, 4:44 pm

Pity wrote:Time to debunk another myth: that the cause of income disparities by race is caused by "white privilege."

First and foremost, a study of more than 13,306 twins found that 62% of the variation in their GSCE scores was genetic.
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/42/15273.full.pdf


Another study found that intelligence was slightly better at predicting future success than parental socio-economic status.
http://www.emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont ... search.pdf

We know that large IQ/intelligence differences exist between the races, but I won't go too much into that.

Basically, that says its a marginally better indicator and using parental socio-economic status is still valid and acceptable. See your White Nationalism thread for numerous arguments on how IQ figures and testing can be seriously flawed.
Pity wrote:
Finch wrote:According to Professor Thomas J. Espenshade, professor of sociology at Princeton University found that Asian-Americans had to score 140 points higher on their SATs than whites to gain admission into the same universities. This phenomenon is not limited to the US, either.


A high amount of Asians are immigrants and international students, so, yes, Americans get preferential treatment in terms of college admission. Heck, if you're so against college admission discrimination, remember that the US has affirmative action, which means even though a white person may be far more intelligent, he or she will be rejected with preference going to a minority even if they score much lower.

Notice how Finch said Asian-Americans, meaning Asians born in America so your argument is irrelevant and invalid. It has been stated countless times why affirmative action exists and why it is necessary, but yes keep thinking its used a tool to disadvantage white people and not one to level the playing field and try right centuries of systemic racism.

Pity wrote:Take a look at medical school admission rates by race, GPA, and MCAT score:
[img]-blah%20blah-[/img]

Blacks are about 150% more likely to be accepted into medical school than a white person with average GPA and MCAT scores. That percentage goes up to 260% when compared to Asians. Hispanics are almost 100% more likely to be accepted into medical school than whites with similar scores and almost 200% for Asians.



See Above.

Pity wrote:The Brookings Institute, a leftist research organization, found that there are three ways to avoid being permanently poor in the United States: finish high school, get a job, and don't have a child out of wedlock.
https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/thre ... dle-class/

Yes, three things that poverty more often than not creates a barrier to do, wait there's a term for it, the poverty cycle! which was started by segregation, racism etc etc.

American Psychological Association wrote:Poor (bottom 20 percent of all family incomes) students were five times more likely to drop out of high school than high-income (top 20 percent of all family incomes) http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/indicator/2013/05/poverty-dropouts.aspx

But yes black people should just get educated and stop being poor, it's so easy why is there even poverty?
As for the second rule, getting a job that pays enough to enable a shift to the middle class directly correlates with an education which we've already established is much harder to gain as a poor person.

Pity wrote:Currently, 73% of black Americans are born out-of-wedlock. This number was 20% in 1960. Do you all really think that racism has tripled since the 1960s? Yeah, me neither. Also, 53% of Hispanics are born out-of-wedlock. For whites, only 29% are born out-of-wedlock. For Asians, it's 17%. How strange is it that this trend also correlates with income, IQ, and education?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... an-americ/

No racism hasn't tripled but the secularisation of society has occurred and with religion being the main reason for having children in wedlock these figures aren't surprising. Furthermore, high birth rates and non-marital births correlate with a lack of sexual education which surprise, surprise is related to poverty! And yeah definitely strange that your figures correlate with income and education, things greatly affected by poverty...


Pity wrote:Again, blacks and Hispanics are much more likely than whites or Asians to drop out of high school.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... opout_1-2/



Pity wrote:A 2001 study found that 70% of the gap in income by race was caused by region, human capital, and occupational differences with 30% unknown, which can be attributed to the causes I previously mentioned.
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/99-28.pdf

Poverty typically affects a region (In which minority groups are over represented) and not just an individual, hence poor cities, suburbs, towns etc. So if a person is born in a poor region 70% of their pay gap is explained by them being poor and the occupational differences that have traditionally seen minorities in blue collar work as a result of.......systemic racism!


Pity wrote:I can't believe I even had to go and do all this research smh. It's not a privilege. It's called personal responsibility.

Personal responsibility to acknowledge that society isn't equal as a result of one races actions and until it is that they will be considered privileged.
this was just a rushed response because tbh I cbf repeating things that me and others have already said countless times that will probably just be ignored.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 24th June, 2017, 5:04 pm

Also, In anticipation of whatever Pity replies with
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 24th June, 2017, 5:05 pm

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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby JonathanT88 » 24th June, 2017, 5:39 pm

I've not read much around the status of black people in America currently (apart from a few history books on civil rights and the civil war), so was wondering if anyone more knowledgeable could help me find something out. Interested in hearing both sides of the argument, if possible.

Is it possible that most of the indicators of African American disadvantage stem from relative socio-economic disadvantage, coming from cycles of poverty existent since the end of slavery, rather than much systemic racism? How much more disadvantaged, if at all, are black Americans than white Americans with similar levels of wealth and education?

Essentially: to what extent can we distinguish the effects of racism from black people's economic disadvantage?
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Unseasoned Chicken » 24th June, 2017, 5:56 pm

JonathanT88 wrote:I've not read much around the status of black people in America currently (apart from a few history books on civil rights and the civil war), so was wondering if anyone more knowledgeable could help me find something out. Interested in hearing both sides of the argument, if possible.

Is it possible that most of the indicators of African American disadvantage stem from relative socio-economic disadvantage, stemming from cycles of poverty existent since the end of slavery, rather than much systemic racism? How much more disadvantaged, if at all, are black Americans than white Americans with similar levels of wealth and education?

Essentially: to what extent can we distinguish the effects of racism from black people's economic disadvantage?

Good question. I'm no expert on the matter myself so I'll leave it to Des but I personally think its a case of the former, the socio-economic disadvantage caused by historical racism has resulted in the current status of African Americans and that current systemic racism is minimal however, not completely eradicated e.g. high rates of police brutality against black males.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby KrisCross » 24th June, 2017, 6:04 pm

Pity wrote:It's a cycle, but again, it's called personal responsibility. If you don't want to be poor, graduate high school, work at McDonald's, and don't have a baby before marriage.

If you don't want to be depressed just be happy haha. This is the mother of oversimplifications Pity, put a line like this on your college application and you won't even need Affirmative Action to have literally any university pick someone else over you.

Debating you on this is far past pointless and tedious. There's tons of well-argued posts on all of your past threads meticulously exposing how you misinterpret data, point out incorrect correlations and mix up cause and consequence however way it suits your argument. You flat out ignore them or bounce back with the exact same arguments that already got debunked. When people point this out you just respond with 'I don't see anything proving me wrong' or 'Sorry I'm just human, I can't respond to all posts' or whatever is convenient for you` Every now and then you drop a 'I hate it when Jonathan proves me wrong' which we never see the consequences of because you picked a side and you're sticking with it. There's a million people out there more intelligent and educated on the subject than any of us saying no, but you'll keep on saying yes.

There's no debating, no discussing, no asking the right questions in it anymore, because all you're really doing is playing tennis. You have already decided who's right in the end when it isn't even about right and wrong, so the real question is why should we bother responding to it anymore? Fun, chaos, the occasional newbie agreeing and whatever more you enjoy as a pastime I guess.
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Re: #BlackLivesMatter (BLM) Discussion | 13th

Unread postby Pity » 24th June, 2017, 8:36 pm

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