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Welcome to the Intellectual Discussion subforum.

This forum is the place for intellectual discussions, such as philosophical or scientific debates. There are some guidelines that apply specifically to posts in this forum, of which you will be expected to have made yourself aware before participating. They are as follows:

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 Page 1 of 1 [ 16 posts ] 
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Unread postPosted: 3rd January, 2012, 3:11 pm 
Unidastazovamerika'liqua
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In one of my random bouts of interest in ancient civilization, I decided to venture to the continent of Africa. The first thing that came to mind, and possibly the most famous sub-saharan thing widely acknowledged, is Great Zimbabwe. It's fairly impressive; "spanned an area of 722 hectares (1,784 acres) and at its peak could have housed up to 18,000 people."

The sad thing of it all is that Great Zimbabwe isn't ancient in the least. It's estimated to have existed during the middle ages. That was a bummer to me, but I refused to believe that African history below the Sahara lacked an ancient footing. In my personal opinion, anthropologists, historians, and even scientists are inclined to believe that there is nothing there as a remnant of historical racism, and overlook or ignore possibilities of civilized ancient peoples. Yet, countless times from various parts of Sub-Saharan Africa, there are hints of a civilized process independent from the rest of the world. The Bantu migration began as early as 2000BC, and the Bantu were an agricultural people. Yes, somewhat behind the development of other cultures, but ultimately developed independently. Also, in terms of metallurgy, the same areas that spawned the agricultural Bantu developed iron- literally going from a neolithic society to an iron age one without the bronze transition. There are even texts where Europeans themselves documented their surprise in discovering densely populated African cities before the slave trade.

Needless to say, I looked into ancient African history more. After reading through the Nok culture, Nubians, and more into Great Zimbabwe, I stumbled upon Adam's Calendar on what seemed to be a conspiracy forum. If you glance at those pages, you'll immediately find errors and immediately become a skeptic. I did, and I still am. The dates seem extreme (200,000 years is about when modern humans first evolved, I doubt that there was a massive civilization at that point), and the scope may be exaggerated for one's own benefit to say, "I'm doing something amazing!" It is all interesting, nonetheless.

Take a look with google maps.
Great Zimbabwe: 20° 16′ 23.03″ S, 30° 56′ 3.64″ E
Some of the supposedly ancient ruins: 25 37'40.90"S / 30 17'57.41E
A few, more impressive, ruins: 25 39' 22.42" S / 30 17' 03.25" E

Long overlooked to be remnants of Bantu migration, or insignificant and recent structures by the native people, there's apparently a story of a farming peoples that mined for gold. You observe many complexes with what seem to be roads connecting them. Now, I am not claiming anything. I'm posting this here so that it can be scrutinized and discussed. The validity of all of this is beyond what I can confirm for myself, and it hasn't gotten much attention from the scientific community. I will say, however, that I don't doubt Africa has been overlooked. I stated some reasons above, but also consider its age. How ridiculous is it to assume that much of Africa's history has been lost? It's a commonly accepted belief that humans originated in Africa (Ethiopian highlands?), and it has long confused researchers as to why a continent so old to man produced so little evidence. Maybe, at the end of the day, we're just not paying attention.

What do you think?

  
 
Unread postPosted: 3rd January, 2012, 3:50 pm 
Parvenus
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Last edited by The Hierophant on 9th August, 2012, 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 1:07 am 
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Poster_Undefined:

Thank you for sharing this. History is something of a passion and interest to me as well. I love delving into what was, what could have been, etc. I've found that history is always up for debate. We have a hard enough time getting the story straight concerning what happened today, last week, last month, right now; let alone thousands of years ago! It's whoever writes it down, leaves something behind, and who believes it or interprets it. I certainly do think that there are things we have ignored, or perhaps have not discovered yet.

The question I would like to pose is: What does it matter if there was a civilized culture of these people in ancient times? What is "civilized?"

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 2:10 am 
Turncoat
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Poster_Undefined wrote:
In my personal opinion, anthropologists, historians, and even scientists are inclined to believe that there is nothing there as a remnant of historical racism, and overlook or ignore possibilities of civilized ancient peoples.


LOL if that where the case don't you think they would have also overlooked all the other non-white civilizations? you provide no evidence to pack up your claim of historical racism, if there is any proof against it, it would have to be the acknowledgement of Great Zimbabwe.

There is nothing wrong with not having a great southern African civilization like the Romans or the Greeks they developed under very different circumstances, look at the Australian Aboriginals in possible over 80,000 years their greatest invention was a stick that came back.

Also they never invented a wheel :blargh:

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 3:05 pm 
Unidastazovamerika'liqua
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deastwood wrote:
Poster_Undefined wrote:
In my personal opinion, anthropologists, historians, and even scientists are inclined to believe that there is nothing there as a remnant of historical racism, and overlook or ignore possibilities of civilized ancient peoples.


LOL if that where the case don't you think they would have also overlooked all the other non-white civilizations? you provide no evidence to pack up your claim of historical racism, if there is any proof against it, it would have to be the acknowledgement of Great Zimbabwe.

There is nothing wrong with not having a great southern African civilization like the Romans or the Greeks they developed under very different circumstances, look at the Australian Aboriginals in possible over 80,000 years their greatest invention was a stick that came back.

Also they never invented a wheel :blargh:
When did I ever say that it was necessary for Africa to have had an ancient past similar to the Romans and Greeks? I simply said I refused to believe that there wasn't an ancient civilization native to Africa. Also, the bolded. But, honestly, how does one go about proving racist thought? Racist action, sure...but thought?

I didn't say that it was an active form of racism. I didn't say scientists saw ruins, acknowledged its history, and purposely said, "that's nothing." I just think that they are simply inclined to believe that what they're observing is nothing because of historical context. If you've been raised in a society that says, "Africans had no writing system and were less advanced, thus had no great civilizations," then when shown a picture of civilized remnants, you may mentally date it as more recent than it truly is. If I took those google images pictures and told an archaeologist, "These ruins were found on the fringes of the Amazon," they may have a different opinion than if I said, "These ruins were found on the savannas of South Africa."

Again, I'm not out to objectively prove anything or disprove other people's thoughts, just discuss "What do you think?" Unless, of course, there's somebody frequenting GTF who is skilled in these areas.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 7:02 pm 
Turncoat
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Poster_Undefined wrote:
deastwood wrote:
Poster_Undefined wrote:
In my personal uninformed opinion, anthropologists, historians, and even scientists are inclined to believe that there is nothing there as a remnant of historical racism, and overlook or ignore possibilities of civilized ancient peoples.


LOL if that where the case don't you think they would have also overlooked all the other non-white civilizations? you provide no evidence to pack up your claim of historical racism, if there is any proof against it, it would have to be the acknowledgement of Great Zimbabwe.

There is nothing wrong with not having a great southern African civilization like the Romans or the Greeks they developed under very different circumstances, look at the Australian Aboriginals in possible over 80,000 years their greatest invention was a stick that came back.

Also they never invented a wheel :blargh:
When did I ever say that it was necessary for Africa to have had an ancient past similar to the Romans and Greeks? I simply said I refused to believe that there wasn't an ancient civilization native to Africa. Also, the bolded. But, honestly, how does one go about proving racist thought? Racist action, sure...but thought?

I didn't say that it was an active form of racism. I didn't say scientists saw ruins, acknowledged its history, and purposely said, "that's nothing." I just think that they are simply inclined to believe that what they're observing is nothing because of historical context. If you've been raised in a society that says, "Africans had no writing system and were less advanced, thus had no great civilizations," then when shown a picture of civilized remnants, you may mentally date it as more recent than it truly is.If I took those google images pictures and told an archaeologist, "These ruins were found on the fringes of the Amazon," they may have a different opinion than if I said, "These ruins were found on the savannas of South Africa."

Again, I'm not out to objectively prove anything or disprove other people's thoughts, just discuss "What do you think?" Unless, of course, there's somebody frequenting GTF who is skilled in these areas.

Oh I am so sorry I did not realize you were a retard I will be off then.

I striked out your most stupid comments because it is clear you have no idea how historians, Archaeologists or anthropologists work.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 10:32 pm 
Unidastazovamerika'liqua
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deastwood wrote:
Oh I am so sorry I did not realize you were a retard I will be off then.

I striked out your most stupid comments because it is clear you have no idea how historians, Archaeologists or anthropologists work.
Glad to have boosted your ego a bit. Are you happy with your ePenis size, now?

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 10:50 pm 
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Whatever the locals knew of the site disappeared once the Bantu-speaking peoples, and then the Europeans, invaded and settled the area, so that bit (local knowledge on the site) is gone forever. :oface:

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 10:56 pm 
Turncoat
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Location: Commonwealth of Australia (Tasmania)
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Poster_Undefined wrote:
deastwood wrote:
Oh I am so sorry I did not realize you were a retard I will be off then.

I striked out your most stupid comments because it is clear you have no idea how historians, Archaeologists or anthropologists work.
Glad to have boosted your ego a bit. Are you happy with your ePenis size, now?


unfortunately beating retards does nothing for it :oface:

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 11:11 pm 
Unidastazovamerika'liqua
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Joined: 11th June, 2010, 10:41 pm
Posts: 2540
Location: Atlanta, GA
Country: United States (us)
deastwood wrote:
Poster_Undefined wrote:
deastwood wrote:
Oh I am so sorry I did not realize you were a retard I will be off then.

I striked out your most stupid comments because it is clear you have no idea how historians, Archaeologists or anthropologists work.
Glad to have boosted your ego a bit. Are you happy with your ePenis size, now?


unfortunately beating retards does nothing for it :oface:
Says the one frothing at the mouth and getting into a condescending tizzy. I'd hate to send you off without having gained something in the end.
Want a cookie? That's alright to feed to infantile children, right?

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 11:13 pm 
Plastic Fantastic
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This has gotten me giggling so hard

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 11:38 pm 
Turncoat
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Posts: 1902
Location: Commonwealth of Australia (Tasmania)
Country: Australia (au)
Poster_Undefined wrote:
deastwood wrote:
Poster_Undefined wrote:
deastwood wrote:
Oh I am so sorry I did not realize you were a retard I will be off then.

I striked out your most stupid comments because it is clear you have no idea how historians, Archaeologists or anthropologists work.
Glad to have boosted your ego a bit. Are you happy with your ePenis size, now?


unfortunately beating retards does nothing for it :oface:
Says the one frothing at the mouth and getting into a condescending tizzy. I'd hate to send you off without having gained something in the end.
Want a cookie? That's alright to feed to infantile children, right?

How am I the child you are the one having a bitch because your people were never smart enough to form an ancient civilisation.

You accuse historians and archaeologists being raised to think racistly, because you are to stupid to comprehend that nothing happened in that area for thousands of years. You give your "personal opinion" but you have nothing to back it up no support for your claims and allegations.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 7th January, 2012, 11:55 pm 
Unidastazovamerika'liqua
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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deastwood wrote:
Poster_Undefined wrote:
deastwood wrote:
Poster_Undefined wrote:
deastwood wrote:
Oh I am so sorry I did not realize you were a retard I will be off then.

I striked out your most stupid comments because it is clear you have no idea how historians, Archaeologists or anthropologists work.
Glad to have boosted your ego a bit. Are you happy with your ePenis size, now?


unfortunately beating retards does nothing for it :oface:
Says the one frothing at the mouth and getting into a condescending tizzy. I'd hate to send you off without having gained something in the end.
Want a cookie? That's alright to feed to infantile children, right?

How am I the child you are the one having a bitch because your people were never smart enough to form an ancient civilisation.

You accuse historians and archaeologists being raised to think racistly, because you are to stupid to comprehend that nothing happened in that area for thousands of years. You give your "personal opinion" but you have nothing to back it up no support for your claims and allegations.
I think that you're drawing conclusions from things that were never stated, possibly based in your own perceptions and personal opinion. I couldn't care less whether "my people," produced a significant culture or not. That's not stopping me from getting a good education and doing something with it now. This spawned from an interest in ancient history, not a militant effort to prove that ancient Africans were capable of producing grand civilizations. Maybe if you calmed yourself and took some time to actually read what others have typed instead of jumping to the keyboard to produce your arguments, you'd seem a little less insane.

Secondly, I'm confused as to when intellectual discussion became intellectual debate. I'm the kind of person who likes to talk through ideas, and I wanted this topic to be one of those things. If I were entering a political discussion, then you could damn well bet I'd have empirical data and evidence to back up my claims. Nothing aggravates me more than people debating politics with nothing but their intuition. However, last I checked, not everything in life is as pivotal or volatile as politics and required the same framework to formulate a discussion. I don't expect a deranged monkey such as yourself to understand this concept, though. I guess I'm retarded for assuming you could.

Lastly, I never accused historians of being racist. For the love of god, read what I've typed. If you can't seem to understand the concept I'm setting forth, then perhaps I'm not the retarded one.

But, kudos to doing the work for me. You seem to have exemplified well enough your personality and attitude in the last post. I got quite the laugh out of it. Especially the Africa and yogurt joke. The most primitive of Africans seem to be more civil than you.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 8th January, 2012, 12:09 am 
Est. 1994
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I would have to agree with the historians and such because of the abundance of wild animals..and if africa had started off with people it there would be a good handful of extinct wildlife..

  
 
Unread postPosted: 9th January, 2012, 2:16 am 
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This is losing all sorts of qualities of intellectualism, fast... :facepalm2:

/thread

  
 
Unread postPosted: 9th January, 2012, 3:59 am 
Plastic Fantastic
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If Daniel doesn't want that cookie can I have it?

  
 
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