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Unread postPosted: 5th November, 2011, 3:31 pm 
Member
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Posts: 523
While I agree that banks have treated the ordinary person on the street rather belligerently, I just don't see what these protests hope to realistically achieve :dunno:. Yes, they can raise awareness and highlight the issue, but to simply protest against "capitalism" in general is naive.

If you want change, I believe you have to take part in the democratic process...

  
 
Unread postPosted: 5th November, 2011, 4:11 pm 
Lord Pennybags
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Location: New Mexico
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FirePhantom wrote:
OccupyWriters.com
Daniel Handler (a.k.a. Lemony Snicket) wrote:
Thirteen Observations made by Lemony Snicket while watching Occupy Wall Street from a Discreet Distance

1. If you work hard, and become successful, it does not necessarily mean you are successful because you worked hard, just as if you are tall with long hair it doesn’t mean you would be a midget if you were bald.

2. “Fortune” is a word for having a lot of money and for having a lot of luck, but that does not mean the word has two definitions.

3. Money is like a child—rarely unaccompanied. When it disappears, look to those who were supposed to be keeping an eye on it while you were at the grocery store. You might also look for someone who has a lot of extra children sitting around, with long, suspicious explanations for how they got there.

4. People who say money doesn’t matter are like people who say cake doesn’t matter—it’s probably because they’ve already had a few slices.

5. There may not be a reason to share your cake. It is, after all, yours. You probably baked it yourself, in an oven of your own construction with ingredients you harvested yourself. It may be possible to keep your entire cake while explaining to any nearby hungry people just how reasonable you are.

6. Nobody wants to fall into a safety net, because it means the structure in which they’ve been living is in a state of collapse and they have no choice but to tumble downwards. However, it beats the alternative.

7. Someone feeling wronged is like someone feeling thirsty. Don’t tell them they aren’t. Sit with them and have a drink.

8. Don’t ask yourself if something is fair. Ask someone else—a stranger in the street, for example.

9. People gathering in the streets feeling wronged tend to be loud, as it is difficult to make oneself heard on the other side of an impressive edifice.

10. It is not always the job of people shouting outside impressive buildings to solve problems. It is often the job of the people inside, who have paper, pens, desks, and an impressive view.

11. Historically, a story about people inside impressive buildings ignoring or even taunting people standing outside shouting at them turns out to be a story with an unhappy ending.

12. If you have a large crowd shouting outside your building, there might not be room for a safety net if you’re the one tumbling down when it collapses.

13. 99 percent is a very large percentage. For instance, easily 99 percent of people want a roof over their heads, food on their tables, and the occasional slice of cake for dessert. Surely an arrangement can be made with that niggling 1 percent who disagree.

I never knew Lemony Snicket was such a bad writer. I mean, seriously, that's awfully written.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 5th November, 2011, 4:19 pm 
The Librarian
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Egregious wrote:
FirePhantom wrote:
OccupyWriters.com
Daniel Handler (a.k.a. Lemony Snicket) wrote:
Thirteen Observations made by Lemony Snicket while watching Occupy Wall Street from a Discreet Distance

1. If you work hard, and become successful, it does not necessarily mean you are successful because you worked hard, just as if you are tall with long hair it doesn’t mean you would be a midget if you were bald.

2. “Fortune” is a word for having a lot of money and for having a lot of luck, but that does not mean the word has two definitions.

3. Money is like a child—rarely unaccompanied. When it disappears, look to those who were supposed to be keeping an eye on it while you were at the grocery store. You might also look for someone who has a lot of extra children sitting around, with long, suspicious explanations for how they got there.

4. People who say money doesn’t matter are like people who say cake doesn’t matter—it’s probably because they’ve already had a few slices.

5. There may not be a reason to share your cake. It is, after all, yours. You probably baked it yourself, in an oven of your own construction with ingredients you harvested yourself. It may be possible to keep your entire cake while explaining to any nearby hungry people just how reasonable you are.

6. Nobody wants to fall into a safety net, because it means the structure in which they’ve been living is in a state of collapse and they have no choice but to tumble downwards. However, it beats the alternative.

7. Someone feeling wronged is like someone feeling thirsty. Don’t tell them they aren’t. Sit with them and have a drink.

8. Don’t ask yourself if something is fair. Ask someone else—a stranger in the street, for example.

9. People gathering in the streets feeling wronged tend to be loud, as it is difficult to make oneself heard on the other side of an impressive edifice.

10. It is not always the job of people shouting outside impressive buildings to solve problems. It is often the job of the people inside, who have paper, pens, desks, and an impressive view.

11. Historically, a story about people inside impressive buildings ignoring or even taunting people standing outside shouting at them turns out to be a story with an unhappy ending.

12. If you have a large crowd shouting outside your building, there might not be room for a safety net if you’re the one tumbling down when it collapses.

13. 99 percent is a very large percentage. For instance, easily 99 percent of people want a roof over their heads, food on their tables, and the occasional slice of cake for dessert. Surely an arrangement can be made with that niggling 1 percent who disagree.

I never knew Lemony Snicket was such a bad writer. I mean, seriously, that's awfully written.


The presentation is not the point so... why focus on it? Why even draw attention to it? What point are you trying to make?

  
 
Unread postPosted: 5th November, 2011, 4:34 pm 
Lord Pennybags
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Nothing... It just surprised me.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 5th November, 2011, 6:34 pm 
Illuminatus
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Joined: 21st September, 2010, 11:08 am
Posts: 3441
Location: FL
Country: United States (us)
indelibleStain wrote:
Egregious wrote:
FirePhantom wrote:
OccupyWriters.com
Daniel Handler (a.k.a. Lemony Snicket) wrote:
Thirteen Observations made by Lemony Snicket while watching Occupy Wall Street from a Discreet Distance

1. If you work hard, and become successful, it does not necessarily mean you are successful because you worked hard, just as if you are tall with long hair it doesn’t mean you would be a midget if you were bald.

2. “Fortune” is a word for having a lot of money and for having a lot of luck, but that does not mean the word has two definitions.

3. Money is like a child—rarely unaccompanied. When it disappears, look to those who were supposed to be keeping an eye on it while you were at the grocery store. You might also look for someone who has a lot of extra children sitting around, with long, suspicious explanations for how they got there.

4. People who say money doesn’t matter are like people who say cake doesn’t matter—it’s probably because they’ve already had a few slices.

5. There may not be a reason to share your cake. It is, after all, yours. You probably baked it yourself, in an oven of your own construction with ingredients you harvested yourself. It may be possible to keep your entire cake while explaining to any nearby hungry people just how reasonable you are.

6. Nobody wants to fall into a safety net, because it means the structure in which they’ve been living is in a state of collapse and they have no choice but to tumble downwards. However, it beats the alternative.

7. Someone feeling wronged is like someone feeling thirsty. Don’t tell them they aren’t. Sit with them and have a drink.

8. Don’t ask yourself if something is fair. Ask someone else—a stranger in the street, for example.

9. People gathering in the streets feeling wronged tend to be loud, as it is difficult to make oneself heard on the other side of an impressive edifice.

10. It is not always the job of people shouting outside impressive buildings to solve problems. It is often the job of the people inside, who have paper, pens, desks, and an impressive view.

11. Historically, a story about people inside impressive buildings ignoring or even taunting people standing outside shouting at them turns out to be a story with an unhappy ending.

12. If you have a large crowd shouting outside your building, there might not be room for a safety net if you’re the one tumbling down when it collapses.

13. 99 percent is a very large percentage. For instance, easily 99 percent of people want a roof over their heads, food on their tables, and the occasional slice of cake for dessert. Surely an arrangement can be made with that niggling 1 percent who disagree.

I never knew Lemony Snicket was such a bad writer. I mean, seriously, that's awfully written.


The presentation is not the point so... why focus on it? Why even draw attention to it? What point are you trying to make?

Possibly you can explain the point of it to me, because I'm quite at a loss. It looks an awfully lot like poorly written, substanceless shlock that doesn't really say much about the situation, either concerning the OWC protests or the economic situation in general. It reminds me a good deal of those silly little feel good posters I'd see in the office of a guidance counselor talking about what a great place the world would be if we all made time for cookies, milk, and naptime every day. If you're a prominent (well, Lemony Snicket isn't quite prominent, but have some minor fame?) individual who honestly has something to say, and by this I don't mean wanting to say something, about the situation, then by all means write a fun little topical snippet. But this is just ... awful, milk toast center left garbage.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 6th November, 2011, 1:42 am 
Marquis Du Jardin de Pommes Sensuelle
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Posts: 1048
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I thought it was particularly in poor taste how often he threw in allusions to the French Revolution, considering how poorly that allegory would fit with his tenth observation.

Unless he's intending to reference Portal, which would just be odd.

It seems to me that it's mostly drivel, though...

  
 
Unread postPosted: 8th November, 2011, 1:25 am 
Something New
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That first analogy killed my brain.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 8th November, 2011, 7:04 am 
Turncoat
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Joined: 18th March, 2011, 6:07 am
Posts: 1824
Location: Commonwealth of Australia (Tasmania)
Country: Australia (au)
I think Anthony Downs "Issue Attention Cycle" is pretty relatable to this you should all read it because I cbf explaining it

A link for help http://www.unc.edu/~fbaum/teaching/POLI ... t_1972.pdf

  
 
Unread postPosted: 11th December, 2011, 11:50 pm 
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Posts: 436
Location: Midwest U.S.A
the occupy wall-street people are nothing more than ratarted idiots who want nothing more than everything else to be handed to them. :rant: half of america does not pay tax taxes. and the rich already pay their fair share. they pay anywhere between like 30-40% of it. oh a lot of the rich people give a crap load of money to charity, take more away they will donate less. Get a fucking job! :owned:

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 12:17 am 
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Posts: 70
I agree with the some of the other posters, in that the OW movement is completely pointless; maybe instead of saying "STOP CHEATING US" you could, I don't know, possibly form a party or lobby group with actual aims...

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 12:22 am 
Live or die. But don't poison everything.
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Location: Montréal
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Othertom wrote:
I agree with the some of the other posters, in that the OW movement is completely pointless; maybe instead of saying "STOP CHEATING US" you could, I don't know, possibly form a party or lobby group with actual aims...

It's not like they came up with a list of demands...

1. Complete bans on federal political contributions, replaced by public campaign financing.
2. Reversal of the “Citizens United v. FEC” Supreme Court decision.
3. Combating Washington’s “revolving door.”
4. Bans on gifts to federal officials.
5. Tax reform – eliminating special carve-outs and increasing progressiveness.
6. Single-payer health care.
7. Increased environmental regulation.
8. Reduction of the national debt through a progressive income tax and elimination of corporate handouts.
9. Federal job-training programs.
10. Student loan debt forgiveness.
11. Immigration policy, including amnesty for illegals.
12. Recalling the U.S. military globally.
13. Education mandates and teacher pay.
14. Massive expansion of public works projects.
15. Spurring China to end currency manipulation.
16. Reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.
17. Refinance all underwater mortgages at 1% interest rate.
18. One-year freeze on all foreclosures.
19. Free air time for all political candidates who gather sufficient signatures.
20. Immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 2:00 am 
Member
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Joined: 31st October, 2011, 7:26 pm
Posts: 70
quandmême wrote:
Othertom wrote:
I agree with the some of the other posters, in that the OW movement is completely pointless; maybe instead of saying "STOP CHEATING US" you could, I don't know, possibly form a party or lobby group with actual aims...

It's not like they came up with a list of demands...

1. Complete bans on federal political contributions, replaced by public campaign financing.
2. Reversal of the “Citizens United v. FEC” Supreme Court decision.
3. Combating Washington’s “revolving door.”
4. Bans on gifts to federal officials.
5. Tax reform – eliminating special carve-outs and increasing progressiveness.
6. Single-payer health care.
7. Increased environmental regulation.
8. Reduction of the national debt through a progressive income tax and elimination of corporate handouts.
9. Federal job-training programs.
10. Student loan debt forgiveness.
11. Immigration policy, including amnesty for illegals.
12. Recalling the U.S. military globally.
13. Education mandates and teacher pay.
14. Massive expansion of public works projects.
15. Spurring China to end currency manipulation.
16. Reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.
17. Refinance all underwater mortgages at 1% interest rate.
18. One-year freeze on all foreclosures.
19. Free air time for all political candidates who gather sufficient signatures.
20. Immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq and Afghanistan.



But what may I ask are they doing to achieve those? Apart from protesting in the streets which a) doesn't affect the 1% and b) largely relies on the media, which is EVIL according to them. And besides, do they really think that all of these demands are feasible, with the state that the US government and governments worldwide are in fiscally at the moment, which will worsen with the euro crisis still largely unsolved. (yes I know that the GFC and the EC are as a result of a portion of the 1%'s actions.)

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 11:42 am 
Valar Dohaeris
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Othertom wrote:
But what may I ask are they doing to achieve those?

They are drawing attention to the issues, and as such shifting public opinion. What else do you expect them to do? It is up to Congress and the President to actually do something, just as they did in 1964; and if they don't, then the public, whose opinion has been shifted, will vote for different people who will hopefully do those things.

The First Amendment says "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" shall not be prohibited. It doesn't tag on "[...], which they must solve themselves" after grievances.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 5:54 pm 
Legal Beagle
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Location: Christchurch, NZ
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FirePhantom wrote:
Othertom wrote:
But what may I ask are they doing to achieve those?

They are drawing attention to the issues, and as such shifting public opinion. What else do you expect them to do? It is up to Congress and the President to actually do something, just as they did in 1964; and if they don't, then the public, whose opinion has been shifted, will vote for different people who will hopefully do those things.

The First Amendment says "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" shall not be prohibited. It doesn't tag on "[...], which they must solve themselves" after grievances.

I saw a really good debate on supporting the Occupy movement a few weeks back - the point was made that while Occupy once served a purpose in calling attention to these issues, that has now been achieved. Because these issues have now been brought into the limelight, the Occupy movements insistence on continuing to cause disruption and damage public opinion has become entirely negative and is undermining the work of legitimate political groups looking (and able) to affect real change.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 6:45 pm 
Till Death
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Posts: 2905
Location: Queensland, Australia
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I dont see anyone fucking careing for the police who are just doing their job. When the few people in a group do something violent or stupid it paints everyone in that group in the same light. Dont bitch about, not everyone is like that. This is what you get when you are part of a group with people like that. :argh:

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 6:57 pm 
Lord Pennybags
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Posts: 7349
Location: New Mexico
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FirePhantom wrote:
Othertom wrote:
But what may I ask are they doing to achieve those?

They are drawing attention to the issues, and as such shifting public opinion. What else do you expect them to do? It is up to Congress and the President to actually do something, just as they did in 1964; and if they don't, then the public, whose opinion has been shifted, will vote for different people who will hopefully do those things.

The First Amendment says "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" shall not be prohibited. It doesn't tag on "[...], which they must solve themselves" after grievances.

But isn't the list of demands a little... silly? It highlights the lack of focus and partisan agenda-pushing that has characterized the movement (and its media coverage) since its beginning. I agree with some of them, but the way I see it the only meaningful issues OWS has shed light on are the ones concerning unsound monetary policies and the illegitimate relationship between government and business. If they want to do something really useful, they ought to draft an ultra-specific list of de/regulations they'd like to see implemented—the kind Congress might actually enact.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 7:00 pm 
Member
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Posts: 70
FirePhantom wrote:
Othertom wrote:
But what may I ask are they doing to achieve those?

They are drawing attention to the issues, and as such shifting public opinion. What else do you expect them to do? It is up to Congress and the President to actually do something, just as they did in 1964; and if they don't, then the public, whose opinion has been shifted, will vote for different people who will hopefully do those things.

The First Amendment says "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" shall not be prohibited. It doesn't tag on "[...], which they must solve themselves" after grievances.


But wouldn't solving it themselves kind of be like, I don't know, not depending on the dirty right wing owned media or the corrupt politicians? For me the occupy movement seems to be a waste of energy in that they waste the opportunities that they could take BY CONNECTING TO THE LARGER DISENFRANCHISED PUBLIC, rather than sitting in city streets which is allowing the media to portray them as weird lefties that are smoking pot, just what they don't want/need.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 7:34 pm 
Legal Beagle
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Posts: 1696
Location: Christchurch, NZ
Country: New Zealand (nz)
Egregious wrote:
FirePhantom wrote:
Othertom wrote:
But what may I ask are they doing to achieve those?

They are drawing attention to the issues, and as such shifting public opinion. What else do you expect them to do? It is up to Congress and the President to actually do something, just as they did in 1964; and if they don't, then the public, whose opinion has been shifted, will vote for different people who will hopefully do those things.

The First Amendment says "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" shall not be prohibited. It doesn't tag on "[...], which they must solve themselves" after grievances.

But isn't the list of demands a little... silly? It highlights the lack of focus and partisan agenda-pushing that has characterized the movement (and its media coverage) since its beginning. I agree with some of them, but the way I see it the only meaningful issues OWS has shed light on are the ones concerning unsound monetary policies and the illegitimate relationship between government and business. If they want to do something really useful, they ought to draft an ultra-specific list of de/regulations they'd like to see implemented—the kind Congress might actually enact.

Don't be silly - a total write off of student loans is TOTALLY realistic :oface:

But yes, sarcasm aside, I agree. If you want to make a political impact, make demands that are at least workable.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 7:44 pm 
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^ :nod: And also organise yourselves properly to make more of an impact

  
 
Unread postPosted: 12th December, 2011, 7:53 pm 
Lana dull Cliché
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This thread is a vivid explanation to me of why the economic crisis won't be solved anytime soon. No leader, no matter how good they are, will achieve anything at all when your country's congress has been kidnapped by corporate lobbyists. The current banking system doesn't need a few minor changes that will miraculously solve everything.

I don't get how can I easily realize power's been kidnapped in my country by a single person yet in other places people won't ever realize their country's power has been kidnapped by a few people with interests that are different from that country's best interest. Is it that hard to look around?

These stimulus packages don't achieve anything. Just ask Greece or Italy. We've had them during the 90's too. Good luck with being in debt for eternity.

  
 
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