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Unread postPosted: 24th September, 2011, 4:26 am 
Marquis Du Jardin de Pommes Sensuelle
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I hate to bump this thread, but I thought I'd leave this here in light of Palestine's recent bid for full membership in the UN general assembly...

Please forgive the corny music and presentation, this is the Canadian press.

I thought both interviews, particularly the first, were very interesting. Mahmoud Abbas is very convincing and correct in saying that nobody "with a shred of conscience" would reject the bid - this doesn't cut down lines of blame, I think. The reason behind the UN is not for it to be a club of countries who all like each other, it is a forum for discourse on (somewhat) equal footing. If the US truly vetoes the position as Obama has promised when it comes up against the Security Council on Monday, it would only serve to prove the resigned irrelevance of this forum.

I'm disappointed in my own country's position on the matter... Opposing the bid because "real negotiations have to take place at a state-to-state level" is a thin façade of reason at best.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 24th September, 2011, 12:16 pm 
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arts_ed wrote:
I hate to bump this thread, but I thought I'd leave this here in light of Palestine's recent bid for full membership in the UN general assembly...

Please forgive the corny music and presentation, this is the Canadian press.

I thought both interviews, particularly the first, were very interesting. Mahmoud Abbas is very convincing and correct in saying that nobody "with a shred of conscience" would reject the bid - this doesn't cut down lines of blame, I think. The reason behind the UN is not for it to be a club of countries who all like each other, it is a forum for discourse on (somewhat) equal footing. If the US truly vetoes the position as Obama has promised when it comes up against the Security Council on Monday, it would only serve to prove the resigned irrelevance of this forum.

I'm disappointed in my own country's position on the matter... Opposing the bid because "real negotiations have to take place at a state-to-state level" is a thin façade of reason at best.


Agreed.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 24th September, 2011, 2:58 pm 
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I think the problem with accepting the bid is that it is a clear avoidance of all the issues. If the Palestinian state is accepted through the UN, do you think everything would just magically work with no problems? Of course not. There would then have to be negotiations to figure everything out. What if the negotiations don't work? Then what?

This is the same as declaring one sports team the champion and then playing out the season.

Or saying you have an A in the class and then doing all of the work to earn that A.

There needs to be a 2 state solution. However, both sides need to be willing, and given, the opportunity to work towards that solution. That means the Palestinians recognizing Israel's right to exist. The Israeli's not building any more settlements in the West Bank. Hamas being removed as part of the equation. The crazy uber-religious Rabbi's not having a say in Israel's political process. The same uber-religious Muslims not having a say in the Palestinian process. Etc.

Grandstanding on either side is ridiculous and abhorrent.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 24th September, 2011, 3:55 pm 
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Xan wrote:
I think the problem with accepting the bid is that it is a clear avoidance of all the issues. If the Palestinian state is accepted through the UN, do you think everything would just magically work with no problems? Of course not. There would then have to be negotiations to figure everything out. What if the negotiations don't work? Then what?

This is the same as declaring one sports team the champion and then playing out the season.

Or saying you have an A in the class and then doing all of the work to earn that A.

There needs to be a 2 state solution. However, both sides need to be willing, and given, the opportunity to work towards that solution. That means the Palestinians recognizing Israel's right to exist. The Israeli's not building any more settlements in the West Bank. Hamas being removed as part of the equation. The crazy uber-religious Rabbi's not having a say in Israel's political process. The same uber-religious Muslims not having a say in the Palestinian process. Etc.

Grandstanding on either side is ridiculous and abhorrent.


Palestine doesn't recognize Israel as a state because of the Hamas, and we all know why the Hamas managed to take control..
I believe the Palestinian people are more then willing to negotiate, they're just being manhandled by a terrorist organization and not receiving support from the people that basically caused the dire situation they're in now.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 24th September, 2011, 4:26 pm 
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hunterplusmariska wrote:
Palestine doesn't recognize Israel as a state because of the Hamas, and we all know why the Hamas managed to take control..
I believe the Palestinian people are more then willing to negotiate, they're just being manhandled by a terrorist organization and not receiving support from the people that basically caused the dire situation they're in now.


Once again, you seemed to not actually respond to anything in my post.

Based off what you said, how can the PLO push for statehood when they don't even have control over the entire state? As I said, this would just be disastrous. It is trying to get the reward without doing any of the work.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 24th September, 2011, 4:52 pm 
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Xan wrote:
hunterplusmariska wrote:
Palestine doesn't recognize Israel as a state because of the Hamas, and we all know why the Hamas managed to take control..
I believe the Palestinian people are more then willing to negotiate, they're just being manhandled by a terrorist organization and not receiving support from the people that basically caused the dire situation they're in now.


Once again, you seemed to not actually respond to anything in my post.

Based off what you said, how can the PLO push for statehood when they don't even have control over the entire state? As I said, this would just be disastrous. It is trying to get the reward without doing any of the work.


They can do it, but only with the support of Israel.. and Israel clearly doesn't want to support them. They'd much rather bomb them, yes.

And I didn't "respond" because I agreed for the most part- a two state solution is the most logical. Israel isn't too happy with this, though.. for whatever reason. Besides.. Palestine deserves the reward without doing any work. Israel's put them in a bad place, and Israel needs to get them out of it.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 24th September, 2011, 5:20 pm 
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hunterplusmariska wrote:
They'd much rather bomb them, yes.


Come on. You say that as if Israel has military operations as if it is a hobby. If you actually think their military operations have no merit you are so far biased this thread should die. Yes, their military has made mistakes. Can you show me a military that has been involved in countless battle/wars/whatever that hasn't?

hunterplusmariska wrote:
Israel's put them in a bad place, and Israel needs to get them out of it.


I don't think you can put all of the blame on Israel for the current state of the Palestinian people. As has been repeated many times in this thread, neighboring Arab countries are the ones who instantly raged war on Israeli creating conflict. Neighboring Arab countries have refused to take in their own people. Instead, they use them as a political ploy. Hamas clearly doesn't care about the Palestinian people. They only care about the destruction of Israel. Yes, certain moves the Israelis have taken to protect themselves have hurt the Palestinian people. Yes, some situations could have been handled better. Yes, parts of the Israeli government need to be changed for the future. However, the Arab world holds a part of the blame for the Palestinian people's plight as well.

I disagree with a lot of the positions of the current Israeli government. Just like I disagree with plenty of things that past and current American politicians have done. Conservative Israeli politicians have a lot of the same issues that conservative American politicians have.

Acting as if Israel is this monstrous tyrannical force and always has been is simply hate-mongering. Especially when you don't give any credit to the amount of hatred and violence has continually been thrown at them since the creation of the country.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 24th September, 2011, 5:25 pm 
Something New
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Can you give me a democracy other then America that has made more "mistakes" then Israel?

And Israel provoked all that conflict, but yes, the the Arab world isn't completely free of blame. It's just that Israel has majority of that blame and Israel is the core reason why the Palestinian people are suffering so much. :keke:

  
 
Unread postPosted: 25th September, 2011, 3:01 am 
Marquis Du Jardin de Pommes Sensuelle
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Xan wrote:
I think the problem with accepting the bid is that it is a clear avoidance of all the issues. If the Palestinian state is accepted through the UN, do you think everything would just magically work with no problems? Of course not. There would then have to be negotiations to figure everything out. What if the negotiations don't work? Then what?

This is the same as declaring one sports team the champion and then playing out the season.

Or saying you have an A in the class and then doing all of the work to earn that A.

There needs to be a 2 state solution. However, both sides need to be willing, and given, the opportunity to work towards that solution. That means the Palestinians recognizing Israel's right to exist. The Israeli's not building any more settlements in the West Bank. Hamas being removed as part of the equation. The crazy uber-religious Rabbi's not having a say in Israel's political process. The same uber-religious Muslims not having a say in the Palestinian process. Etc.

Grandstanding on either side is ridiculous and abhorrent.


As addressed in the interview I linked, though, the appeal to the United Nations is clearly meaningful to the Palestinian people. I don't think anyone sees UN recognitions as producing a victor; that's simply not the way of it. On that note, I don't believe it's avoidance of the issues, either. I think Palestine is vying for recognition on an international level so that when negotiations happen, they will be on equal footing, and not simply create another de facto loss for the average Palestinian person - which is how Israeli/Palestinian relations have gone for the past half a century.

What I'm saying is that, regardless of how much you think it will help, the promise of the United States to actually veto the Palestinian bid for full UN membership does not sound like tacit disapproval of their methods, it is active hindrance to the cause of Palestinian Liberation. This is wrong, and is strictly against what the US claims to be its interests in the feud.

The Israeli Prime Minister made a good case for why this will not solve diplomatic tensions as did you, but he never once made a good or relevant point on why countries should actually vote against the membership of Palestine.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 21st January, 2012, 9:51 pm 
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I agree completely with Tal.

After all, if you lot at a map of Israel, half of it is controlled by Arabs who want to create a Palestinian state where they are. I believe that while I am not religious and in fact Darwinist, that Israel should have a country that is whole within its borders. Tell me one country with in a country that doesn’t have ethnic problems.

Also, the Jews deserve a place to live. The Christians have America (no offence to Americans, but you do have a very godly country) and other tolerant first world countries. The Arabs have most of the Middle East and North Africa. Most religions have homelands so why can’t the Jews have one? :glasses:

One thing if don’t agree with is the use of excessive force against the Palestinians. While human nature is very violent, humans also have the ability to restrain themselves, which marks us from the beast.

As a final point, the reason many first world countries don’t agree with the Palestinian state is because they have large Jewish populations so the leaders don’t want to upset them(because they want the votes) I know it’s not right, but unfortunately, it’s the way things work.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 21st January, 2012, 9:55 pm 
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Why did you bump this thread?

  
 
Unread postPosted: 21st January, 2012, 11:08 pm 
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Wasn't that far from the top

  
 
Unread postPosted: 21st January, 2012, 11:25 pm 
Something New
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Quote:
After all, if you lot at a map of Israel, half of it is controlled by Arabs who want to create a Palestinian state where they are. I believe that while I am not religious and in fact Darwinist, that Israel should have a country that is whole within its borders. Tell me one country with in a country that doesn’t have ethnic problems.

Half? No. Not at all.

Image

Furthermore, tell me one country that has ethnic problems as bad as Israel?

Quote:
Also, the Jews deserve a place to live. The Christians have America (no offence to Americans, but you do have a very godly country) and other tolerant first world countries. The Arabs have most of the Middle East and North Africa. Most religions have homelands so why can’t the Jews have one?

Are you really comparing the Jewish population immigrating to Israel to the reason people immigrated to America..? America was founded on religious freedom and the belief that everybody should be able to practice any religion, be it Judaism or Islam or Buddhism or even Satanism. The Jewish Population immigrated to Israel under the basis that their religion told them it was a holy and sacred land. They were facing heavy prejudice in other European Countries and looked elsewhere to go, and truthfully, there was nothing wrong with moving to Israel - but to found a country, disregard the nomadic Palestinian people and to prevent them from declaring statehood? You must understand why the neighboring countries responded with such violence, no?


Quote:
One thing if don’t agree with is the use of excessive force against the Palestinians. While human nature is very violent, humans also have the ability to restrain themselves, which marks us from the beast.

2008 Gaza War and the blockade that predated the assault.. 'nuff said, tbh. How people could defend such violence is beyond me.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 22nd January, 2012, 5:10 am 
The Commodore
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As far as I understand it- correct me if I'm wrong- Over several centuries Jewish immigrants had been returning to their ancestral land where there were already Arabs, and then our British Empire took over it. After World War 2, with another surge of Jewish immigrants, the British had enough of fighting the people in the area and pulled out, but with the help of the U.N divided it into two states- Israel and Palestine, which included ethnic groups traditionally hostile to each other. Since then Israel's been taking more land from Palestine and now basically there is no Palestine- just one Israel.

How is that just in any way at all? Basically, Israel conquered Palestine for little reason other than "It's our homeland." Isn't that what Hitler tried to pull off when conquering Poland? (Not that the Israelites are anywhere near his level of savagery) I just fail to comprehend how what Israel has done is right or fair in any way at all- even its foreignly-based formation is shady. Any attacks against since have been Arabs trying to retake what was their home that they were forced out of, as far as I know.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 26th March, 2012, 12:06 am 
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Quote:
And as previously stated by Glam, there are very few cases of other Palestine's bombing Israeli's, so the whole "they're all suicide bombers and evil" is bullshit.

your obviously left wing and misinformed, you say you have looked into it well if people supposedly qualified cannot sort out the situation over decades its not your 5 minutes on wikipedia that will get you anywhere.
This is not an Israeli/Palesinian conflict, its an arab world/israel conflit(if you want to consider its allies in the western world go ahead) Israel was created by the UN and after declaration of independance Syria, Egypt Jordan,Lebanon supported by the arab nations attacked Israel.. since then Israel has defended itself but has also been under severe threat as it now is with Iran.
Theres good and bad on both sides but as long as the Hamas, recognized as a terrorist group , is in control of gaza then Israel is to be defended with all the strength necessary..
Stereotypes are definitely a bad thing and it is true that all palestinians and terrorists but it is true to say that Israel has a right to defend itself and only last year did the UN vote, once again to establish that the blockade, even though harsh, is legitimate and necessary.

(btw, this isnt a personal attack ;) )

I have been to Israel and i can support my arguments with maps and atats but thats not the point, all state should be able to be independant as long as it doesnt take away freedom from another, well Israel is a state, Palestine for now, isnt and statehood has been rejected by the UN (not Israel by itself) the world is opposed to the creation of a state as long as their government is a terrorist group (simple, is it not?)

Just hope for peace and you might be satistfied for a period of time xx

  
 
Unread postPosted: 26th March, 2012, 12:24 am 
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Saying the Israelis have the right to rule all of Palestine is like saying the Native Americans have the right to rule the United States. They were driven out of their homeland a long time ago, and it sucks, but they can't just waltz right in and take it back from the people who have now lived there for hundreds of years. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Israel needs to stop swinging its dick around and just agree to a two-state settlement. And don't even get me started on the ethics of creating a state with an official religion.

Additionally, the US needs to stop being Israel's bitch. We're not indebted to them. We don't need to go into Iran for their sake.

  
 
Unread postPosted: 26th March, 2012, 12:29 am 
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Quote:
Israel was created by the UN and after declaration of independance Syria, Egypt Jordan,Lebanon supported by the arab nations attacked Israel..

The methods Israel has used to "defend" themselves are questionable and have been under suspicion.

Quote:
since then Israel has defended itself but has also been under severe threat as it now is with Iran.

Right, and I'm sure Israel will instigate some border clash as they did in the previous years, piss off Iran and cause world war three! Yay!

Quote:
Theres good and bad on both sides but as long as the Hamas, recognized as a terrorist group , is in control of gaza then Israel is to be defended with all the strength necessary..

So creating a blockade to force an economic collapse in Gaza was necessarily? Postponing medication, food and supplies to starving and sick Palestinians is necessarily? Sending in electronically guided missiles that kills thousands of innocent citizens. That's necessary?

Also, the UN doesn't even recognize the Hamas as terrorists. How can you repeatedly emphasize the UN's decision to grant Israel statehood, but disagree with the UN when it comes to the Hamas being terrorists?

Quote:
once again to establish that the blockade, even though harsh, is legitimate and necessary.

That blockade was criticized by the UN and officials from all over the world. The United States themselves asked Israel to put an end to the blockade. Hillary Clinton herself spoke out against Israel.

Of course, Israel responds by blowing up a U.S ship. Why we continue to support Israel is beyond me..

Quote:
all state should be able to be independant as long as it doesnt take away freedom from another

Is killing innocent Palestinian citizens not taking away the freedom from others...? :squint:

  
 
Unread postPosted: 26th March, 2012, 12:35 am 
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Oznoz wrote:
Israel needs to stop swinging its dick around

:rofl2:

  
 
Unread postPosted: 26th March, 2012, 12:36 am 
Something New
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poolerboy0077 wrote:
Oznoz wrote:
Israel needs to stop swinging its dick around

:rofl2:


  
 
Unread postPosted: 26th March, 2012, 12:37 am 
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Personally I believe that when you're in Israel's position, a country's gotta do what it's gotta do. It isn't the Israelis and the Jews that have denied a zillion proposals and peace treaties. Also, when you're the only country surrounded by nothing but countries focused on obliterating every last member of your population/main religion, they can't afford NOT to be on the offensive 24/7.

  
 
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